TIME. What is it?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Tsaphah, Mar 25, 2016.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I've always held that Gen 1:1 is a separate time period then the first creative day. It has always appeared to me the creative days were only discussed as it pertains to the earths development for life itself, not to the creation of the "heavens and earth". Meaning the heavens and earth could have been formed over millions of years, before Jehovah turned his attention to the earth, to form it further for life.

    You are very correct on time, our impression of it is based on our current understanding and measurement. We know an hour is longer then a minute, based only on our impression of those time periods. We also know time is relevant, therefore time could have been different in the past then our current impression of it, and this could be the discrepancy we see in the fossil records, and ages of preflood individuals.

    I do not believe the creative days were a single rotation of the earth around the sun, and if I were to apply scriptural continuity I would have to except that the 7th day rest is the same length as the first 6 creative days, based on what ever model of time Jehovah used. Even though time could have been different in the past, in some way the numbers must work out to be equal. Maybe earth took less time to make a revolution around the sun in the past? Who knows, and I doubt it's a puzzle we will figure out, but we can be sure there is an answer.

    In the end, I see Gen 1:1 separate from the first creative day, which was Gods attention to the earth, to form it for life. I believe the creative days were thousands of years long, but those years could have been different in the past, as it pertains to an observer in our day, and our impression of the passage of time today.

    Simply my opinion...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Another question could also be; What happens to time when there's no observer? It's the duel slit reaction. Some might say the universe and time needs an observer to exist, therefore how would the first five creative days have passed as it pertains to our current observation of time?

    There are too many questions to have any possible outcome currently.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Joshuastone, I liked your reference to the “duel slit reaction”. Only people like us are curious about those things. In his book, “du Sautoy” became frustrated about the detection and obsevation of quantum particles. Are they there only while you are observing? Not always; sometimes yes, sometimes no. :eek: o_O

    Here is an overlooked fact about the creation period in which Jehovah God created. It was six periods of time, not seven. (Gen 2:1-2) So, after the six creative periods, He rested! “By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.” ( Gen 2:2 NASB ) The Hebrew word for rest is shabath. In English it is pronounced sabbath.

    We can also determine that the rest/sabbath spoken of in Genesis 2:2 is longer than 24 hours. Why is that? “Therefore I swore in My anger, Truly they shall not enter into My rest.” ( Ps 95:11 NASB ) “And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?” ( Heb 3:18 NASB )

    For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, ‘As I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter My rest,’ although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.” ( Heb 4:3 NASB ) That rest period has continued into our present day/time period.

    The prophet Zephaniah also spoke of “The great day of Jehovah is near!” ( Zeph 1:14 NASB ) The prophet uses the term “day” repeatedly, to indicate a period longer than a 24 hour day. The Hebrew word yowm is used. The same word used to describe the “days” of creation.

    I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith Jehovah. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith Jehovah.” (Zeph 1:2-3 DNKJV )

    The great day of Jehovah is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of Jehovah: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.” ( Zeph 1:14 DNKJV ) ( 2Pe 3:10; 2Th 2:2; 1Th 5:2 )

    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of Jehovah come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as Jehovah hath said, and in the remnant whom Jehovah shall call.” (Joel 2:31-32 DNKJV )( Act 2:20,21,39; Rom 10:13 )

     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I think about these things sometimes, and I'm reminded of a quote from Shakespeare's King Lear;

    "No, I will weep no more. In such a night
    To shut me out? Pour on; I will endure.
    In such a night as this? O Regan, Goneril!
    Your old kind father, whose frank heart gave all—
    O, that way madness lies; let me shun that;
    No more of that."


    Although our observations are beyond our comprehension, I still enjoy considering them, in moderation. ;)

    There are varying theories of everything at the moment, and one that seems as of late to have a surge is S-Theory and M-Theory. To think the electron is in a state of potential when passing through the slits, and that both possibilities occur at the same moment is mind boggling. Then the wave function collapses at the moment of observation, and one of the dualities are observed.

    This seems to tell us that whatever can happen, does and will. That makes absolutely no sense to me...lol In our Newtonian observation, an action has an equal and opposite reaction, not "every reaction". M-Theory would say that every possible difference from our membrane would have another membrane equal to ours with only a single electron spinning in the opposite direction. Think about that, that means the number of other membranes would have to be infinite, there simply is no other way around it, further away, more differences.

    I do though like to think of closed strings like gravitons sharing their strength across these membranes, making it appear gravity is a weaker force then the other three, when in fact it is not, it simply collects around multiple membranes in a Local Group, while open ended strings are embedded on each membrane, such as matter. That always sat better with me when explaining the motion of the galaxy, without need for dark energy or dark matter which I've always thought is a dead end road...

    And that brings me to singularities. Why do scientist have such a hard time with infinity??? That really gets to me, if we find infinity in the center of a singularity, then maybe nothings wrong with the math, it just simply is, but science refuses to except it. As well with our universe, it seems if two lines remain parallel forever, then they would never return, and in fact the universe is just as infinite as a singularity.

    So since I love this subject, and it feels as though madness lies in the storm of the quantum world, I try to limit my studies of physics as I tend to agree with Eisenstein when he said; "I like to think the moon is there even if I am not looking at it."

    ;)

    PS: Thank you for your commentary on "yowm", that is the reason I get so much from your posts.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    I would like to help anyone learn the languages of the Bible. So, rather than take much of my time away, you can use the same sources that I use. All you have to do is take the time. Take an hour a day. Or, take how much time you would like. Be aware, it isn’t easy. At the front of these lessons is the time it will take to familiarize yourself with how the site works, and how to maneuver around the different pages. I believe you will find it well worth the time. Here is a simple example of the explanation of the Hebrew word yowm translated into English, and the different meanings in context of the thought.

    http://www.studylight.org

    Here are examples taken for the use/translation of the Hebrew word; yowm

    Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition

    Yowm - Time
    (Translated as:

    1) day, time, year
    1a) day (as opposed to night)
    1b) day (24 hour period)
    1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
    1b2) as a division of time
    1b2a) a working day, a day’s journey
    1c) days, lifetime (plural)
    1d) time, period (general)
    1e) year
    1f) temporal references
    1f1) today
    1f2) yesterday
    1f3) tomorrow

    Examples:
    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” ( Gen 1:31 NASB )

    but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” ( Gen 2:17 NASB )

    So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.” ( Gen 4:3 NASB )

    The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.” ( Gen 6:4 NASB )

    Long life is in her right hand In her left hand are riches and honor.” ( Prov 3:16 NASB )

    I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.” ( Psa 2:7 NASB )

    For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.” ( Psa 90:4 NASB )

     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    “The interesting point is that, however much data you uncover, I can give you an equation that will provide a coherent reason for why any number might legitimately come up next. So, given a finite amount of data, it seems we can never really know what the explanation is for that data unless we can get another bit of data against which to test our equation. This is the model of science that the philosopher Karl Popper proposed: a theory can only be falsified, never proved.”

    (The Great Unknown - Seven Journeys To The Frontiers Of Science by Marcus Du Sautoy, pg 224)


     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    “No people who have the same word for yesterday and tomorrow can be said to have a firm grip on time.” - Salman Rushdie, Midnight’s Children

    The Hebrew language has such a word used as temporal references. It is yowm. And, Rushdie claims to be a Muslim. And, he probably doesn’t know anything about time. So, here are a few questions.

    What is the length of a day at the North Pole? Is it the same at the South Pole? What about at the equator? Does space and time have the same shape? Are they finite or infinite? o_O
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I truly wish more people around us understood this brother, or better said, understood what they did not know. There would be so less cockiness in the world... Such a plague...
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    I was going to attach the graphic scale, then my slow mind said: “Self, why don’t you just add the url? Duh!! Here it is.
    Joshuastone7, I believe you willl love this portion. My wife says it's all like Chinese to her.

    Electromagnetic spectrum
    http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/electromagnetic+spectrum

    Click on the diagram on the page for more information.

    Here is the thought process for scientists: It must have evolved from nothing. This intricate spectrum developed by itself from nothing. The mathematical equation is 0 = 1 -1.

    ZERO EQUALS ONE MINUS ONE - THIRD EDGE: QUANTUM PHYSICS
    The question of why there is something rather than nothing may not be as unanswerable as we think. As soon as you have a bit of empty space, quantum physics is going to start filling it with stuff. The version of Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle that I have explored so far looks at the relationship between position and momentum. But there are other physical concepts that are similarly entangled.

    For one thing, Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle also connects the measurement of energy and time. If I look at what is happening in an apparently empty bit of space, then decreasing the time period in which I examine the space increases the uncertainty of the energy content—which means that empty space can never be truly empty. Over very short periods of time there is the chance of energy fluctuations. Since energy can change into mass, this results in particles spontaneously appearing from the vacuum. Most of the time, they annihilate each other and disappear back into the void, but sometimes things survive. And this gives us a mechanism for getting something out of nothing.

    But where does this energy come from? Doesn’t its sudden appearance contradict the concept of conservation of energy that physics holds dear? Some propose that the total energy content of the universe is actually zero, so no one is cheating the system. The key here is that gravity provides a negative energy content. So the universe can emerge from zero energy—from nothing—because what emerges is a combination of positive and negative energy. We are just seeing the equation 0 = 1 - 1 at work.

    It might seem a bit bizarre to call gravity negative energy, but think about putting a large mass like an asteroid next to the Earth. As the asteroid falls toward Earth it gains kinetic energy, but the gravitational pull is also going up because gravity increases the closer two masses are to each other. So to maintain a constant energy, this gravitational potential energy is negative and balances the increase in kinetic energy.

    According to Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, it follows from the fact that space exists that you will get particles appearing from nothing. You don’t have any need for a creator. Quantum fluctuations mean that we are seeing something appearing from nothing all the time. As we shall see in the Fifth Edge, this is how Hawking explained why black holes radiate particles. Nothing becomes a particle and an antiparticle—one gets trapped in the black hole and the other radiates away. So quantum physics already provides a partial answer to the something-from-nothing question.

    However, you do at least need a stage on which to play this quantum game. Some equate empty space with nothing. But that is a mistake. Three-dimensional empty space, a vacuum, is still something. It is an arena in which geometry, mathematics, and physics can play out.

    After all, the fact that you have a three-dimensional rather than a four-dimensional empty space already hints at the evidence of something. Nothing does not have a dimension. The ultimate challenge, therefore, is to explain how quantum fluctuations might produce space and time out of genuine nothingness.” (The Great Unknown - Seven Journeys To The Frontiers Of Science, by Marcus Du Sautoy, pp 172-174)
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    I will pose a question here about time or what physicists call space-time. This is based upon statements from two different sources. The first is from Albert Einstein’s words just before his death. He reminisced about his close friendship with Michele Besso.

    “The foundation of our friendship was laid in our student years in Zurich, where we met regularly at musical evenings . . . Later the Patent Office brought us together. The conversations during our mutual way home were of unforgettable charm. Now he has preceded me briefly in his departure from this strange world. This means nothing. For those of us who believe in physics, the distinction between past, present, and future is only an illusion, however tenacious this illusion may be.”

    The second is from the person we know as Jesus Christ. “And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the LORD ( Jehovah Exo 3:6; Exo 6:3 ) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.” ( Lu 20:34-38 DNKJB )

    As Jesus said, “For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.” Here is the question: Was Jesus speaking about space-time? Time, as we know of it on earth is different from space-time. Our human time here is based upon the rotation of the earth = day and night = 24 hours, plus the circumvention around our sun/star = year = 365 days = 8,760 hours earth time. Where does the resurrection take place, here on this earth? Or, is the “new earth” (Isa 65:17, 66:22, 2 Pe 3:10, 13, Rev 21:1) someother place and time?

    Also, take into consideration what Peter said when speaking of the end: “However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (2 Pe 3:8 NWT) Time is relative.

     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    Since Jehovah created time, he is not subject to it. For him, there is no past, no present, no future, as Einstein points out. In the dimension of God, there are no dead. For him, the resurrection has already taken place, since time does not exist.
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    For Jehovah he is on the eternal present,time exist only for his creation that he created thru Christ. Time is a measurement from a start to the present and as we know Jehovah has no beginning. Time started when He created the Word (Christ) a beginning was made and a measurement could start. Pr:8:22,23 May Jehovah's blessing be with you all, Regent
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Yes, Jehovah is outside of time as we know it. He sees past, present, and future, all as the same.

    He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.” (Ecc 3:11)

    Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;” (Isa 46:10)

    Then He said to me, ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.’” (Rev 21:6)
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    The following is an article from Wilczek's Universe. Enjoy! :)

    (Wilczek’s Universe: Frank Wilczek)
    The Wall Street Journal - April 27, 2017​

    The Ancient Question of Time

    WHEN I STARTED COLLEGE, I was eager to get on with studying science and math. But the University of Chicago was determined to civilize me, and I got a big dose of ancient philosophy. Reading Plato, Aristotle and the like made a deep impression on me. In the long run, they even helped my physics.
    Of course, their views on physics, and science in general, ranged from naive to wrong. By modern standards, they didn’t know much. But they asked fundamental questions and discussed them vigorously. If you want to break free of conventional wisdom, the ancient philosophers are an inspiration. At the frontiers of knowledge, their subversive, childlike questions can take you to new territory.
    “What then is time?” asked St. Augustine in his “Confessions.” “I do not know. If nothing passed away, there would not be past time; and if nothing were coming, there would not be future time ... Those two times, therefore, past and future, how are they, when even the past now is not; and the future is not as yet?” As it turns out, St. Augustine’s questions have been at the forefront of physics over the past century.
    Albert Einstein was a great fan of the ancient Greeks. Before he wrote the papers that made him famous, he and a few friends formed a discussion group that they called—tongue in cheek—”the Olympia Academy,” where they discussed philosophy and literature as well as science. A 1947 New Yorker profile reported that Einstein “reads the Greeks to [his ailing sister] Maja every night for an hour or so, even if he has had a very tiring day.” “How can an educated person stay away from the Greeks?” Einstein asked. “I have always been far more interested in them than in science.”
    In formulating the special theory of relativity, Einstein realized that to address the paradox that the speed of light is a universal constant, appearing the same to moving observers, he would need to re-pose a philosophical question (”What is time?”) in an operational form (”What must you do to measure time?”). In analyzing that question, Einstein showed that different observers, moving with respect to one another, arrive at different definitions of time.
    In everyday life, we experience a big difference between past and future. We remember the past but guess the future; the past is completed, the future unfolds. Run backward, an ordinary movie doesn’t look realistic. People generally don’t drive quite as fast and furious in reverse, especially while looking forward. Yet the fundamental laws of physics don’t take past and future into account: They are accurate (with minor exceptions) whether things run forward or backward in time.
    So why are past and future equivalent? Physicists have made spectacular progress toward answering that question, but they still hope to discover experimentally a peculiar new kind of particle—the axion, which cancels out potential past-future asymmetry—to complete their story.
    The opposite question is similarly profound: Since the laws of physics don’t distinguish between past and future, why does our own world, at least as we experience it? Much of the explanation stems from inexorable tendency of matter to evolve from order to disorder. It is easier to make a mess than to clean one up. A precise form of that observation is codified in the second law of thermodynamics,
    which says that entropy in an isolated system increases over time. The direction of that increase distinguishes the future from the past.
    Islands of order resist this onslaught, of course, and we humans seek them out. We take special interest in discovering that our present retains parts of the past, in the form of relics and memories. Physicists do the same thing with the universe, in work we could call cosmic forensics. Such research has allowed us to uncover evidence for the origin of our universe in a great explosion, the big bang.
    Scientists have magnificent tools today, but fundamental discoveries still often hinge on asking the right “naive” questions. St. Augustine dared to ask, “What is the past?” and Einstein taught us to refashion that into, “What must we do to measure the past?’ In the quantum world, that is a pointed question—and my current obsession—because measurement is a disruptive process, which disturbs the thing being measured.
    Once again, my intellectual heroes are guiding us toward fertile ground.
     
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    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    Anything is possible to Jehovah.

    So assume he stops time and roams the Earth while everyone is paused. When he counts "1, 2, 3" how many seconds have passed in his mind and how many have passed in our minds?
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    It all depends whether it is Earth time, Space time, or Jehovah’s time. For Jehovah, time is relative. Remember?

    For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.” ( Ps 90:4 NASB )

    But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.” ( 2 Pet 3:8 NASB ) Peter said it was “a fact”, not a theory.:)

     
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    BreakTheWalls

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    But is it figurative for his patience?
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    The answer is, No! It is neither figurative or a metaphor. His patience is literally true, factual. It is always there, to be used for good. (Ro 9:22; 1 Pet 3:20; Ge 6:3) Not only are we to be witnesses of Jehovah God and Jesus today, there will be a future time when we may be used again. (Rev 20:1-10):)
     

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