Separate roles of 1st century prophets & apostles and how that harmonizes with GB today?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by marshroanoke, Aug 27, 2017.

  1. 113
    92
    28
    marshroanoke

    marshroanoke Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    It's interesting that apostles (the men taking the lead) and prophets (the spiritual guides) were separate roles in the first century. It seemed odd to me that God didn't give the apostles both leadership and prophecy roles, but the more I reflect the more it makes sense.

    In the United States government, the three branches check one another so that no one entity gets too powerful. Of course, all human governments attempt to achieve the justice that is innate within God. Perhaps, the prophets and apostles checked each other so that no one became too dominating in the first century. There's a similar relationship between Kings and prophets in ancient Israel. While the prophets had to respect the authority of those taking the lead, God selected prophets to keep the spiritual path of his people in line. So, there's an apparent logic to separating leadership from spiritual direction.

    Today, the Bible fulfills the role of the prophets in the first century, and I believe it should act as the check for anyone taking the lead today. While humans prophets of the past could be conversed with to clarify spiritual direction, the Bible is a one-way conversation. We do our best to interpret what we have, but the Bible is not a black-and-white rule book and can be discerned differently from person-to-person (as made evident by the multitude of Christian denominations). In the WT organization, the Bible is not a distinct entity from the GB, because the GB claims to be the only ones that can properly interpret the Bible. You can't get the "truth" from the Bible without the GB. So, there is little room for personal conscience on scriptural interpretation. In a nutshell, the GB claims both leadership and doctrinal interpretation roles, so there's a lot of unchecked authority there. Who checks the GB? Bible history indicates that Jehovah God separated roles, because he understood human nature and had a concern of authority abuse. I believe one GB member remarked that JWs won't blindly follow direction that violates the Bible, but did he seriously reflect on that? Of course the Bible does act as a limit in some ways--I'm not suggesting JWs would blow a building up if a GB member said to do that. However, JWs have followed incorrect direction in the past that later was later "refined". Do JWs getting a free pass for following incorrect direction? Or are they judged like the ancient Israelites who followed the false direction of their kings?

    While the Council of Jerusalem comparison seems appropriate for the GB today, I question whether they exerted the same control we see in the WT organization. We only have one recorded event in the Bible where the first century Christian governing body intervened and made a decree. It was an emergency situation when there was discord in the Christian community. And the goal of the decree was to put less burdens on Christians rather than more.
     
    SingleCell likes this.
  2. 2,227
    373
    83
    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2013
    Messages:
    2,227
    Likes Received:
    373
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Occupation:
    Variety of roles
    Location:
    Australia (the Big Island)
    Hi marshroanoke

    Interesting post - I never stopped to think about this point before.
     
    SingleCell and Orchid like this.
  3. 113
    92
    28
    marshroanoke

    marshroanoke Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    In a way, the GB acts like the first century Christian prophets, because the prophets were necessary to "fill in the gaps" of an incomplete Bible.

    Today, we have a complete Bible, so prophets are unnecessary. However, the GB asserts that Bible discernment is unsuccessful without them interpreting it. In other words, the Bible alone is insufficient--we need the GB to "fill in the gaps."

    But the Bible should stand alone as a separate entity. It shouldn't be intertwined with the GB, because the Bible should act as an external auditor for the GB's actions. At present, by being "guardians of doctrine" they can make the Bible fit their method of operation (the Bible is not a rigid thing and this can be taken advantage of).
     
  4. 3,811
    725
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,811
    Likes Received:
    725
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    Rev 11:3 "I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.”

     
  5. 113
    92
    28
    marshroanoke

    marshroanoke Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Future event. Not saying there won't be a need for prophets in the future.
     
  6. 94
    65
    18
    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2017
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Hi. Marshroanoke, Let us examine the words: "Today, we have a complete Bible, so prophets are unnecessary". We will turn our Bible to Rev:22:9 Here we have a angel of God warning apostle John not to worship him but to worship Jehovah. In this vs it mention "Prophets" Let's read that vs.9 - But he tells me:"Be careful ! Do not do that ! All I am is a is a fellow slave of you and your brothers who are "Prophets" Now we will examine the time frame that those words were said by Jehovah angle. We all have to agree it was at the very end of the 1st century, so the phrase: Today, we have a complete Bible,so "Prophets are "unnecessary" if that statement is exact John would have been the last "Prophet" for Jehovah. Because he was the last servant of God to write Bible books. But is that what God's angel said? He said :
    Brothers who are "Prophets". WE know that apostle John was a very age man at that time. Certainly his brothers that were "Prophets" were not all 101 and almost "Done" some certainly lived quite a stretch in the first century, if they had been of no use as "Prophets" (Prophets) would have stop with "John" but it did not, as the bible says. WE have to always remember that the Bible is " one third "Prophesy" we need those that have the same kind of Spirit to understand "Prophesy" for it would be of no use for "Prophesy to be written. 1Co:12:4-11 vs 10 Christian Love,Marchroanke, Regent
     
  7. 2,492
    809
    113
    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2013
    Messages:
    2,492
    Likes Received:
    809
    Trophy Points:
    113

    I have a problem with your statements; “WE know that apostle John was a very age man at that time.” How do you know John was aged when he was given and wrote Revelation? How do you know he was 101? Where do you get “one third prophesy?” You place that in quotes, from who? Show me where you get these figures.

    Also, what about the “two witnesses” who will “prophesy”?

    And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” (Rev 11:3 NASB )

    And I will give to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” (Rev 11:3 Codex Sinaiticus)

    This “prophesying” will apparently be during the “end times”, and it will likely take place during that time period, due to what was said by Jesus at Rev 22:19-20.
     
    Orchid and marshroanoke like this.
  8. 94
    65
    18
    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2017
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Tsaphah, what strange question are you asking me. I am sure you have enough education to find that out all by your self, am I right. 1st ques: How do I Know John was aged when he was given and wrote Revelation? (The same way as you) 2nd ques: How do you know he was 101? ( I have not said that John was 101, I mention: certainly his " Brothers that were Prophet" were not 101- a simple "say" meaning as the Old age apostle John. 3rd ques: Were do you get "one third of the Bible is prophesy?" From known Bible "Scholars" I am sure you can find them out by your self. One thing I want to correct is that many brothers living and were "Prophets" at the end of John life lived certainly quiet a stretch in the ( second century ) no first century as I had said. 4th ques: Also, what about the " two witnesses" who will "prophesy? (I can not find any thing that I wrote that say's that this will not happen.) The reason that I wrote that (quote) was to prove that their was still "Prophets" when the Bible was all completed and that their are still some now. In other words even from: Enosh to our "Epoch". Amen: Agape Love Tsaphah, Regent
     
  9. 2,492
    809
    113
    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2013
    Messages:
    2,492
    Likes Received:
    809
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Your post is what I expected. Thanks for proving to be evasive.

     
  10. 94
    65
    18
    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2017
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Tsaphah, before I write to any one I go on my knees and pray to Jehovah so that what I write is with "Love,Humility,Discernment,etc. I had prepared to answer those question that you had ask me, I had started to jot them on a sheet of paper notes from a book on the early christian fathers, but I could not see that those question were out of Love in their intention. So after praying, my mind change and imitated Christ in Luc:20:2,8. I will pray that we can continue to grow in "Love, Humility,Discernment, etc. Amen. You call it "evasive", I call it "discernment" What is important is what Jehovah call it. From "Brotherly Love" Regent
     
  11. 2,227
    373
    83
    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2013
    Messages:
    2,227
    Likes Received:
    373
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Occupation:
    Variety of roles
    Location:
    Australia (the Big Island)
    Hi Regent

    I understand that there is variety in everyone's personality on the forum and there is variety in the way people express themselves.

    In order to help prevent misunderstandings between brothers/sisters, may I suggest if we can post with more clarity.

    I'll just use a couple of examples here:

    You talked about John being aged 101. That could be interpreted in 2 ways.

    Was John literally 101 years of age when he wrote Revelation?

    Or was he 101 years old, meaning "he was a really old guy who was past 100 and then some."


    The point about "one third prophesy:"

    Do you mean that the content of the Bible is "one third prophesy" and one third of another category and one third of another category again?
    (For example, one third prophecy, one third history,one third morals..........or something similar)

    Or do you mean that the Bible talks about a "one third prophesy"?
     
  12. 94
    65
    18
    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2017
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    HI sister wisdom, Joshua said the same thing that I should post with more clarity, I have tried hard to do just that. I will explain the 101 and almost "Done" It was to make a rhyme. Witch meant to simply say that his spiritual brothers that were "prophets" at the end of John's life were certainly not all about the same age as John and ready to pass away at about the same time. A apostle in that time that was 60+ was a old man, it was very demanding physically, all that walking, in the heat,cold,rain or shine. make me think of my job as a Logger, I am 62 and almost trou. Witch means at the very end of my career is that a little more "CLEAR" By the way this does not apply for a women they are always young. The apostle Paul was saying that he was a old man around that age. Phm:9, a person has to do a little work to find that out. Now if Paul was old at that time, certainly John was old not to say older. I will give you just a other example that if we use a little reasoning we can find all kind of interesting thing. We will go to, Lu:14:12,14, here Jesus had been invited by a man and - I will just jump to what I want to show you, in the latter part of vs 14 it reads: "For you will be repaid in the resurrection of the righteous ones." In other words Jesus was giving him his death certificate before his coming in kingdom power and also to any one that was around the same age of that man. What can we do with a little reasoning? Now time to explain, one third of the Bible is "Prophecy" that I read in books of Bible scholars, I think they mean that one third of the Bible is Prophecy and the two third is something else. For me I am not picky with that say, I can see for my self that the Bible contain many Prophecy in it. I hope I was clear. May God's "Wisdom and Love be with you and to all the Christian Family. Regent


    I understand that there is variety in everyone's personality on the forum and there is variety in the way people express themselves.

    In order to help prevent misunderstandings between brothers/sisters, may I suggest if we can post with more clarity.

    I'll just use a couple of examples here:

    You talked about John being aged 101. That could be interpreted in 2 ways.

    Was John literally 101 years of age when he wrote Revelation?

    Or was he 101 years old, meaning "he was a really old guy who was past 100 and then some."


    The point about "one third prophesy:"

    Do you mean that the content of the Bible is "one third prophesy" and one third of another category and one third of another category again?
    (For example, one third prophecy, one third history,one third morals..........or something similar)

    Or do you mean that the Bible talks about a "one third prophesy"?[/QUOTE]
     
  13. 0
    0
    0
    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    Wasn't Paul both? An apostle and a prophet.
     

Share This Page