Perfection

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Utuna, Dec 3, 2014.

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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    The topic of perfection seems to have been covered in some detail.

    Wondering if it would be possible to introduce more information regarding the resurrection subject to the thread, please? ;)
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    Here is in full the scripture warning about debates about words:

    If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome*instruction,+*which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion,+*4**he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything.+*He is obsessed*with arguments and debates about words.+*These things give rise to envy, strife, slander,**wicked suspicions,5**constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind+ (1 Timothy 6)


    Why can't we simply rely on words in the Bible and draw conclusions from them?
    Well it is because words are not consistently used in the Bible. Look for example at the word soul, how many meanings it has in the Bible.

    Back to the resurrection of Jesus:
    What do you think about the Shroud of Turin? Is it a good evidence of Jesus' resurrection?
    And what about the Garden Tomb in Jerusalem, do you think it is possibly the tomb where Jesus was laid?
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Yes ma'am!

    Maybe we can move the perfection topic and the comments into it's own thread.

    Back to resurrection, done with perfection.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Done...
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    glad you did that Josh , I was kinda looking forward to a discussion of "perfection"
    and "flawless" ...as I took to considering yesterday as to various applications in
    both life and fields of pursuit ...it's apparent that having all "knowledge" is not
    necessary to "perfection" as even Jesus does not know the day or hour of the
    times God has kept for himself and has yet flawlessly carried out the will and
    personality of the "Father" ...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Absolutely, Adam and Eve's lack of knowledge did not make them any less perfect then they actually were physically, spiritually and with their relationship with Jehovah.

    Jehovah would only create something perfect. It is true that he also takes delight in his creations as well, it's not just all math. An example can be made here; Let's substitute the word "good" with a synonym of its meaning in that of "beautiful".

    Gen 1:31 "After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very beautiful. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day."
     
  7. Hi Joshua:

    By your reasoning, not mine, if "good" means perfect, then Jesus was saying that only Jehovah is perfect when he answered the rich man. I'll will remind you and onlookers that it was you that first brought up this scripture.

    As he was going on his way, a man ran up and fell on his knees before him and put the question to him: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?â€￾+ 18 Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good (or "perfect") except one, God.+ Mark 10:18

    Just saying.... couldn't resist!

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The most difficult part of having a conversation with you is you lacking the ability of understanding what I write even when I spell it out in the most simple language possible.

    I do not believe the word "good" means perfect, and I never said anything of the such...

    You again are sadly mistaken...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Let me try again Frank to help you understand what I am saying, to make it as simple as possible.

    Gen 1:31 uses the word "good" in the same way Mrk 10:18 uses the word "good", metaphorically. They are speaking of the qualities of the universe and the qualities of Jehovah. Neither scripture is speaking of the perfection or lack there of in either scripture.

    Understand?
     
  10. Hi Joshua:

    "You are smart, and I am not".

    frank
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    Frank,
    I would like to advise you not to put too much weight on words, because words are just descriptions of realities. Words are abstract things, while real things are real things.

    Because of that words like perfect, or complete or good or excellent do not exclude each other.

    When something is perfect, it is also good. Doesn't it? Like when God said what he created was very good.
    It was perfect for that purpose.

    Like a hammer is perfect for beating down nails. But a hammer is not perfect for painting.
    You understand that things can be perfect depending on what they are designed for.
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    I think Jesus was good and he new it, because if Jesus was not good, then he would have been bad. But of course Jesus was not bad.
    So the reason why Jesus told nobody is good except God, is simply as also WT says, Jesus did not like that people adressed him with the word Good as a title.
     
  13. HI Jan:

    Thanks for the advise, but you need to review how this discussion got started. Joshua holds the idea that Adam and Eve were "perfect" so that if they chose to leave God for another person or something else that they could never be forgiven because they have sinned against God's Spirit. This is a common belief, and I am OK with anyone who wants to believe this, but I think it is a fallacy of thinking and is not supported by scripture. The only reason that I brought up the "good" versus "perfect" argument in the beginning was to challenge Joshua to show me where Jehovah says in the scriptures that he made Adam and Eve "perfect" or to concede that this was simply an assumption that he and many others have made, but that it is not explicitly stated in the scriptures.

    My point was that the idea that Adam and Eve were "perfect" is an assumption that is made by many but is not supported by scripture. It is an interesting thought and at one time I too believed it and to me at the time it was "logical" and in an attempt to think like all the other JW's I accepted it as truth. I no longer think that way and furthermore, although still being somewhat logical, it lacks scriptural backing. Something this crucial would have much more scriptural backing if it were Gospel.

    Although my intellect and my understanding have been ridiculed and I have been accused of not answering questions (although I usually try to back my thinking with pertinent scriptures which are sited and highlighted in my comments) I have still not been shown in God's Word where it clearly says that Adam and Eve and all the rest of God's creation were made perfect. It doesn't matter what I feel or what you feel or what anybody else might "feel" about the subject. It only matters what God says in his Word the Bible. I am still waiting for such an answer.

    frank
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2014
  14. Hi Jan:

    I think the reason for Jesus saying this is no doubt very profound, and to tell you the truth I personally have not figured what he actually meant and I have not read anything that explains the meaning in a way that makes scriptural sense to me. But really this scripture has nothing to do with our discussion on "perfect" in regards to Adam and Eve and the rest of Creation.

    frank
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    Hi again,
    That's what I too believe. And I find it logic. In Genesis 1 : 31 it says that after the six creation days, including the creation of humans that everything God created was very good. So Adam and Eve were very good as creatures.
    I don't think there was anything God missed when he created them. So now it was up to them to live right.
    It would not be God's fault if they would act stupidly and harm themself.

    It is like our children, to one you can give your inheritance and he will squander it, but the other will instead use that wisely and make something good with it.
    It won't depend on you.
    The same happens at work. Some workers just don't want to do right and will never Iearn it. And you have to fire them, while other workers want to do right and you can use them.

    Otherwise if we assume that God deliberately created Adam and Eve with faults, it would put God in bad light. That would mean God is responsible for our sins, and not we ourselves.
    And it would not be so brilliant from God to create humans and angels with faults. It would mean God was not a smart enough creator.

    But now the fact is that God created everything very well. And all what went wrong, the disobedient angels and humans are themselves responsible for.
    It was not God's will that things must go wrong with useless sufferings and death.
    If just all angels and humans had stuck to what was right, everything would have been nice without sufferings and death.
    That's what God wished the outcome would be in the first place. But when Satan introduced the rebellion and sin and death God had to implement a plan B to get everything in order as he wished in the first place.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    This is a very open and thought provoking post, nothing wrong with a little constructive criticism, so let's break down this subject a little further...

    Let's say you are right for a moment. Let's say cancer, gout, infections of any kind existed before Adam and Eve sinned, this would mean that Jehovah would have called any and all of these things "very good". As you see there is a paradox there. In no way would Jehovah call "good" something that would destroy mankind.

    The burden of proof does not lie with proving the universe and mankind was created perfect, the burden of proof lies in trying to prove they weren't. We know imperfection comes from sin. We know Jehovah himself is perfect. The likely assumption throughout all scripture is that everything that was once created had a perfect relationship with Jehovah, which denotes perfection. Hence why the burden of proof lies in you to disprove that, and I haven't seen one shed of evidence that these things were not created perfect. Which leaves us with the power of deduction.

    Yes what Jehovah created in the first 6 days of creation was "beautiful" but, that would not have made it less then perfect in any way. So therefore the universe and it's contents being "good" has nothing to do with there being any imperfection in it such as sin, cancer, disease.

    There is no way that the garden of Eden could have contained anything imperfect such as disease. Anyone who thinks the universe was not yet perfect or "flawless" when it was created by all means point out it's imperfection before Adam and Eve had sinned.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Don't confuse free will with imperfection. Jehovah gave Adam and Eve a door to imperfection in that of the tree of good and bad to allow them to decide on their own to serve him or not. Had they not have chose that door they would still be here, and still be flawless. Free will has nothing to do with imperfection.

    Creation being created "good" simply was describing it's character, not it's nature. You see, not only was the universe functional, it was also "beautiful" in other words good=beautiful.
     
  18. Hi Jan:

    You are free to believe anything that you wish, but you nor Joshua have shown me where Jehovah says in the scriptures that all of his creation was made in "absolute perfection". You have not done this because you can't, he never said this.

    Joshua has given "good" the equivalent of "beautiful" and I don't understand the relevance of that, but he also has admitted that this whole idea of "perfect" creation is simply an assumption (his own words, look it up).

    "The likely assumption throughout all scripture is that everything that was once created had a perfect relationship with Jehovah, which denotes perfection." Quote from Joshua

    What I did not say and never have said is that the creation was made in a way described by Joshua in this statement...

    "Let's say you are right for a moment. Let's say cancer, gout, infections of any kind existed before Adam and Eve sinned," Quote from Joshua. Never said that nor ever implied that so I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth, I do not do that to you.

    I know that Jehovah made his creation exactly as he wanted to, I have just asked you without making assumptions, show me where he said this in the scriptures or admit that he did not say this nor imply it in any way. It's as simple as that.

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The burden lies with you, we know Jehovah is flawless. You claim creations by him were imperfect, show us where any other creation was less then flawless at it's creation.

    Does not the burden lie with the one that has the claim?
     
  20. There you go again, putting words in my mouth to prove your point because you can't prove it from the scriptures without sweeping assumptions that for lack of scriptural support remain unscriptural. i never said nor implied that Jehovah had or has flaws. To the contrary I know that Jehovah and everything that he does is performed exactly to his intentions. I think that all of his creation was made exactly the way that he wanted it to be, including mankind and specifically Adam and Eve. So, at least in this way it was made perfectly in regards to Jehovah's purposes without having to be absolute perfection.

    Jehovah knew that Eve would be deceived by the serpent in the Garden. This was clearly a mismatch. Eve, who was just formed was no match for the cunning of the Devil who had existed for eons before her. He had also participated in the Creation of "man" if not "the man", which was Created by Jehovah alone. So he knew on a Genetic level his foes.

    Jehovah also knew that Adam, when presented with the choice of following his wife into sin or remaining faithful to his Creator would side with Eve and so did Satan. Jehovah so much as stated it in prophecy in Genesis 2, which is a record of what happened or what would happen soon before Adam and Eve sinned.

    That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to* his wife, and they will become one flesh.+ 25 And both of them continued to be naked,+ the man and his wife; yet they were not ashamed. (because they had not yet sinned at this point, but Adam would clearly choose to follow his woman, Eve in her sin instead of "remaining" with his Father (Jehovah) and his Mother (the Holy Spirit). Genesis 2:24,25

    Jehovah also prophesied that the two would eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Bad when he said...

    But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.â€￾+ Genesis 2:17

    Jehovah did not phrase the statement "if you eat from the tree", but "for in the day that you eat from it, you will certainly die, dying."

    Now think about this a bit. Adam had this command for years prior to sinning. He was given this command when he was placed in the Garden (which is stated in verses 15 and 16. So, a substantial enough time had passed (while he was naming all the animals and up to the time that Eve was created and presented to Adam as a helper) without Adam violating said command. It was not until Adam was presented with the choice of remaining faithful to his Mother and Father, or choosing to "stick" to his wife that he chose to violate Jehovah's command, which is exactly what verse 24 "prophesied". Jehovah knew exactly how this would play out and he said just so in his Word for all to see who have eyes to see.

    So, I agree that Creation is perfect in the sense that it will accomplish everything that Jehovah has made it to accomplish and that he knows exactly what will happen before it does and ususally he will prophecy just so.

    I have presented my scriptural proof for my point, now it's your chance to do so with the scriptures.

    Adam's sin was not that he was incapable of resisting eating from the tree that he was commanded not to eat (he proved he could abstain for years) but his sin was that once he had a helper, one that was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone, that he would not be able to resist "sticking" to her even if it meant leaving his Mother and his Father, who loved him dearly. Eve was thoroughly deceived.

    frank
     

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