Luke 21:8

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by BreakTheWalls, Jul 18, 2017.

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    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    Is it worse to believe in 1914 or the Cross & Trinity?
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    The answer you'll get from humans won't necessarily match that of our Father's view on the subject, BreaktheWalls.

    There are, of course, humans who try to draw distinctions and establish tiers of sin, but it is ALL sin before our Father. He doesn't look at a person who's convinced by the arguments in favor of the 1914 doctrine and has come to believe its truthfulness and say they are worse than another believer who believes that the doctrine of the Trinity best explains the relationship between Jesus and Jehovah.

    And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.… — Romans 3:23, Berean Study Bible

    By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. — John 13:35

    If only you had known the meaning of 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. — Matthew 12:7, Berean Study Bible

    But there was also a dispute among them, of who among them was great. So Jesus declared, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them... — Luke 22:24-25a, Berean Study Bible

    Whenever we make something about who is right (and, consequently, who is wrong), we've lost the plot, in my opinion. As believers in the Promise and our walk of faith as disciples, we may strive for uniformity, but it is only through a bonding Christlike love that we are united as brothers and sisters.

    And let's be honest: the only reason why we would insist on this worse than/better than has nothing to do with all having been declared righteous, but rather to show that we are better than the next person who was declared righteous by our Father. "I'm more right than you are, therefore, I'm more righteous than you are," is how those sorts of debates go.

    Submitted for your consideration and perusal,
    ~~Earthbound
     
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    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    Well I think there may be levels, for practicing homosexuals are receiving the full penalty. I also thought there weren't levels of sin before, but that isn't true. For Paul even said that those who practice sin wilfully will not be forgiven. So to me it seems, Jehovah looks at the heart condition more than anything else.

    Jehovah's Witnesses know Jehovah and Jesus. Trinitarians don't know Jehovah and the Bible says those who also deny the father are Antichrists.

    So one party, knowing Jehovah has been decieved to the point that they will not be saved for believing the lie. (Assuming they shrug off the two Witnesses of Revelation who torture the Earth for 3 years, also assuming the 2 Witnesses arrive before Christ.)

    The other party neither knows Jehovah, is worhsipping pagan doctrines and symbols (cross & Trinity) they also expel Demons in the name of Christ which Jehovah's Witnesses do not do. It is these who I think Jesus says "get away from me, I never knew you."

    But, concerning Armageddon and the end times, everyone will have a fair chance to repent, as these two Witnesses will Prophecy for 3 1/2 years and torture the Earth until the good news of the kingdom is preached to the entire inhabited Earth.

    So it is my opinion, that worhsipping pagan doctrines and symbols is worse than believing 1914.

    I know I didn't become a JW for 1914, but because JWs were shunning the cross symbol.

    It seems to me, believing 1914 isn't a problem until we get to the end, but how will JWs be saved if they are allowing themselves to be misled now? The stumbling block headed our way is so strong, if it were possible, even the chosen ones would be misled.
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    I think we must make the difference between worshiping the cross and believing that Jesus is dead on a cross rather than on a pale. After all, are we 100% sure that it was not a cross? We have photos or videos? Romans used to use the cross, so why would they have made an exception for Jesus? I do not say that they actually use the cross for Jesus, but that, in my opinion, it does not matter.
    Jesus is dead for us, as we used to say, and the means used, I think, is irrelevant. We do not base our faith on a piece of wood.
    It is my opinion, but I can be wrong.
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    I have come to believe the same: our Father is looking at the heart of the individual, past the inclinations of fallen, imperfect flesh, thinking and reasoning and perception all shaped by the culture we happened to be born into, and countless other variables we are not privy to. I have every confidence in my Father's ability— and Jesus' ability— to know the difference between a person worshipping sincerely but under whatever preconceptions and misperceptions they might have, and the person who has everyone going "Now there goes a model brother! Look at everything he does for the church/organization/what-not" unaware that the person is quite someone else behind the facade, whether a molester, practicing homosexual, alcoholic who continues to drink. The ones who view him as he portrays himself outwardly aren't wrong for believing that the person is truly a brother. Love has a willingness to believe all things because it cannot countenance deception. They have been deceived, but this does not make them worthy of destruction, does it? In most case, they would be shocked to discover the hidden reality, and react at that time as any of us should when we realize we have been decieved, and stop associating with that person as though they were a brother.

    Personally, I wouldn't go so far as to declare that "Trinitarians don't know Jehovah," as it has been my experience that they do know the same Father I have come to know. Just because they perceive Jehovah in a particular way that creates an unnecessary obstacle between them and the Father doesn't mean they don't know him. In their mind, to their level of understanding, they believe that the Trinity doctrine is true and accurate. No amount of counterargumentation is likely to change their minds. There wasn't a Christian on the planet who could've convinced Saul to change his mind. That took a powerful appearance from the Master of our Father!

    Minds and hearts aren't opened because we've bashed someone's viewpoint down to dust at our feet. And it's just as egotistical to think that since someone didn't come around to our way of looking at things (2+3=5... no! 4+1 may give you 5, but it's not the right way to come up with 5) that they can't possibly be a fellow slave, or someone whom our Father has his eye on, or Jesus has plans for in due course. Our duty is to plant and to water. That's it. But there will always be those brothers and sisters who become convinced that they can also make the plant grow-- and if it doesn't, that it's their obligation to uproot it and cast it out.

    I heard someone relating an account from their own walk. A man was pleading with God, asking why can't Jehovah just destroy all of these wicked people who don't worship Him in "truth and righteousness," and Jehovah said, "Okay, I'll start with you, then."

    We all have a particular blindspot. In my case, I have numerous blindspots!! Things that I misunderstand or misconstrue and that aren't as "right" as I like to tell other people that I am about those things. Jehovah help me, *I* have no idea what they are, but there they are, right in front of my face!

    "Believing a lie" is an intriguing accusation for a Christian to make, because let's go back to the brothers and sisters who believed that so-and-so was a fine, upstanding member of the congregation. They really believed it, to the point that the person made them believe the lie by promoting it. Do they stand in condemnation for not knowing any better, for not knowing "the Truth"?

    Likewise, I believe there are an unknown number of brothers and sisters among Jehovah's Witnesses who believe the doctrine surrounding "1914" out of their own loving way. Will their faith be tested as the evidence continues to mount and call the doctrine into re-examination? Of course, but who among us will get through this Life not having our faith tested? Are there those who are willing to defend the 1914 doctrine to the detriment of others? Absolutely, just as there are Trinitarians who are more than willing to stomp out anyone who would question their particular doctrine. Christians have often killed for far less!

    But, again, for me to decide for Jesus who gets to live and who should die based, not on what they did with the knowledge they had or whether they still managed to demonstrate Christlike love for others, but whether they were right about what they believed at any given time... well, I have to confess that I would prefer Jesus handle that particular heavy-lifting! I have a full-time job watching my own self try to stray and strut its way through any given day.

    My apologies for my necessary brevity!

    Submitted for your consideration and perusal,
    ~~Earthbound
     
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    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    Yeah, but anyone who isn't ready to drop these false beliefs when it is time will perish. No matter how great of a Christian you are, Jesus will condemn them to death, so it is written.

    Whether it is 1914 or the Trinity.

    I have to disagree that trinitarians know God. They flat out deny Jehovah exists. Trinitarians will say Jehovah is another name for Jesus. They mix demonic Trinity teachings that were first taught by nimrod with Christ and Jehovah. They make fun of Jehovah and say Jesus was never created, that he's always existed. They don't understand that they are denying the son and father, for a son is begotten from a father, therefore Jesus cannot be thee son if he was never created. and this is Antichrist teaching.

    For what sacrifice is there if Jesus didn't really die?
     
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    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    My concern isn't what he died on, it matters not. But the reverence of the symbol that is the cross, for it does have pagan roots.
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    And I soooooooo look forward to that day.

    Yes, I've encountered Christians like that who happened to also believe what most Gentile Christians came to believe right down to our day. Us Gentiles as a lineage have been heathens far longer than we've been believers in a single, Almighty Creator. It runs deep.

    And that's not to mention what happens when men rise up within the congregations as they did with their "orthodoxy" and began deciding for everyone else what was truth and what wasn't. How did that happen? Why didn't the other Christians stand up to these men and stamp out this gangrene? And how does it continue in our day with Christian groups who have a centralized authoritarian system of governship? Speaking secularly, how did Germany come to follow Hitler?

    I believe the answer lies in this question I've asked our Father: Who is He holding accountable? The leaders and teachers of Jesus' body of believers en masse, or the people for not rising up and removing the gangrene from their midst?

    Or, did the people just not know any better? Humans, in general, are followers. From our Creation we were designed to follow. Until Adam made a decision, that he was personally qualified to determine what was good and what was bad, or evil, Adam had been following his Father, Jehovah Elohim, as most interlinears will support. After that, the majority of Christians hold in common the belief that Adam began to follow Satan, who was (now) god of this world or system of things.

    We submit to others. This is especially impressed upon Jehovah's Witnesses by the Watchtower organization's leadership, based on my personal experience while I was still a member. Yet there continue to be Witnesses, right? Some leave, and new ones come along. For one thing, the Watchtower organization offers a structured Christianity that can bring a great deal more comfort than I suspect some give it credit for. All one has to do is follow the direction of the "Faithful and Discreet Slave." And so they do, all the while unable to see a painful resemblance to the hierarchy and authoritarianism of catholicism.

    Yes, each and every one of us is going to, at some point, be forced to face errors we once thought absolute truths. And we either grow with that opportunity, and allow it to mature us, or we remain entrenched and only so much chaff in the cold, stiff wind that's coming for the likes of them.

    Let's take the Jews as an example. The people clearly were burdened beneath the Pharisees, yet somehow the Pharisees not only persisted in their existence, but maintained authority over God's people. What were they to do, really? They believed that Jehovah had provided these men to keep His people holy following the victories of the Maccabeans. Why else didn't they just stand up and take down the Pharisees, end of troubles?

    Anyhow, getting back to your unfortunate experience with Christians who just happen to believe that Athanasius has the better argument, there are others I've met who helped me appreciate that there are brothers and sisters out among those other judgmental characters. And I'll speak fairly and mention that I know and have met Witnesses with much the same personality bent. It's sad and heartbreaking, regardless of the membership card.

    As to their agreement with Athanasius and his argumentation, I would disagree that it makes them antichrists, since the scriptures make it clear and beyond question that an antichrist is one who does not believe that Jesus was (and is) the Christ. (1 John 2:22; 5:1) On that basis alone, Christian Trinitarians are excluded, since they definitely believe that Jesus was/is the Christ. They just happen to also believe Jesus was God come in the flesh. I'm not going to lose any sleep tonight because Mr. Jones up the road is a Trinitarian when I've been coming home after work the past couple weeks and seeing him helping an elderly neighbor with her lawn and then her garden because the spirit of our Father moves him to do that. And she doesn't even attend a church! When the time comes, his eyes will be open, my eyes will be open, everyone's eyes will be open for the first time, and Oh what a day that will be!

    Submitted for your consideration and perusal,
    ~~Earthbound
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    I will relate a little experience, down my way their is a man and his wife that are very well known in our community,they are my age over 60. They are part of a Church group call "The Gospel Hall" part of those Born again Christian they are known for their Godly conduct and charity for many years. The community raises food for the needy, the gospel hall has accepted to have that food distributed from their building. The man's wife even if she is confine to wheel chair works as volunteer. I had many Bible discussion over the years with them,they believe in the doctrine of the "Trinity" as you may have guess, as you know I never was able, to prove them otherwise but I wanted to know his spiritual heart if it was humble, it did not look like it at first view with those Bible discussion . I said to my self I will put him to the wall so to speak , I said to him you know God's Word very well in 1Co:13:12 it say's that right now we see only thru a metal mirror we certainly do not have every understanding of God's Word right on. he said to me you are saying the truth. I ask him the question: When Christ comes again if he say's to us that we do not have the right understanding of his Word in some area, will we be ready to accept to be corrected by Him? He told me yes indeed. I told him that it was what I thought. The "Moral" of this true story is Godly conduct speak louder than our present understanding of God's Word. May Godly "LOVE PREVAIL" Yours in Christ, Regent
     
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    marshroanoke

    marshroanoke Member

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    Trinity is worse by far. It makes Jesus and Jehovah parts of one whole rather than separate entities. Jesus Christ never wanted to be put on the same level of Jehovah, but that's what the Trinity does. Jesus may have died on a cross, but the exact method of execution is irrelevant. What's significant is that he died on a tree and took our curse. I wouldn't stress about 1914, because that will get exposed in time just as 1975 was exposed.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    The timeline of Luke 21 seems to be:

    1. A false claim that the conclusion is about to initiate, and the Holy Spirit anointing process has resumed.

    Is this the Adventist movement? It's the only thing that fits; out of it came Jehovah's Witnesses.

    2. Wars and rumors of wars, diseases, food shortages, etc

    "when you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified. For these things must take place first"

    These first two are a collective "sign", as "furthermore" implies in verse 9

    Speculating that this was roughly the 1840 - 1975 period.


    THEN:

    3. "you will be hated by all people because of my name"

    This hatred seems to be caused by two factors:

    - an external witness to the world [hence, handed over to prison, verse 12]
    - an internal witness to the Christian congregation [hence, "disfellowshipping", verse 16 - compare with Daniel 11:35]

    Speculating this is roughly the 1975 - current, and ongoing, period.

    THEN:

    4. the "appointed time of the nations", 1260 days / 3.5 years / times, time, half a time

    This is a future time, when the "Jerusalem above" is trampled by the 8th king.

    A distinct period of "nation rising against nation" [verse 11,12] from the "wars and disturbances" [verse 9], as it happens AFTER the internal / external witness.

    -------------------

    Other pertinent questions regarding Luke 21:8:

    - is the suggestion to "not associate" with the people of phase #1?
    - or is the suggestion not to "follow after" the claim?

    The reason I would argue that it's the latter, "not follow the claim in your heart", is that we know from 2 Thess 2 that an "operation of error" in the form of an early pariousia exists WITHIN the congregation immediately before Jesus initiates the actual conclusion.

    So is Luke 21:8 a reference to 2 Thess 2's false pariousia within the "Temple of God"?
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    I'd like to respond to this first, if that's alright.

    First, I do not believe there are gradations of sins. (Luke 16:10) There is only sin. And it is the cause of our falling short of the glory of our Father which we were created to reflect and exemplify before everything over which we had been appointed. (Romans 3:23)

    One cannot ever say that someone or someones is better than someone else because, the moment they do, they are blind to the plank in their own eye.

    This is what the Mosaic Law entailed. Eye for an eye and that sort of thing. It was the Law that dictated which offering one had to make, on what day, and on go the specifics.

    The Law of Moses.

    Except we are not under the Mosaic Law. Our Exemplar, Jesus of Nazareth gave us a new command, to love one another.

    I give you a new law. That law is, "Love each other." As I have loved you, so you also love each other. This is how all people will know that you are my disciples. —John 13:34-35, Bible in Worldwide English

    The problem is that humans, being the humans they are, tend to keep the best of their love for themselves and those whom they approve to be called Christian. This, in spite of our own Redeeming Father Himself being no respecter of persons or nations!This in spite of Jesus not keeping all of his love to his own disciples (some Bible translations like to have Jesus saying "love among yourselves" to justify keeping the best of their "Christlike" love "in the family," so to speak.

    "Do you think you deserve credit merely for loving those who love you? Even the sinners do that! And if you do good only to those who do good to you, is that so wonderful? Even sinners do that much! And if you lend money only to those who can repay you, what good is that? Even sinners will lend to their own kind for a full return. "Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked. You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate. Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. Stop criticizing others, or it will all come back on you. If you forgive others, you will be forgiven.

    A student is not greater than the teacher. But the student who works hard will become like the teacher. And why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, 'Friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,' when you can't see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye."
    — Luke 6:32-42, New Living Translation
    If Jesus was okay with his own disciples having mistaken views and erroneous priorities, by what authority do we demonstrate a disdain for others who are have mistaken views, asserting that such ones are worse than other sinners? I guarantee that each and every one of us has mistaken views that we are absolutely convinced we are right about. There isn't a person among us who has all the "Truth." The sheep have been scattered to allow divisions to manifest what is really in our hearts. Seeds of judgmentalism and self-righteousness flourish under the present conditions within the body of Christ.

    Instead, Jesus commanded us, we are to have love for one another. Not just for those who agree with us on every doctrinal note, not just for those who worship alongside us, but everyone.

    Bottom line, I am to love my enemy with the same love I am to love a brother in fellow hope and faith. I am to bless my enemy and those who persecute me.

    "But I say to YOU who are listening, Continue to love YOUR enemies, to do good to those hating YOU, to bless those cursing YOU, to pray for those who are insulting YOU." — Luke 6:27-28, NWT
    In the original Greek, the word "bless" here carries the sense of praising or asking God's blessing on even those who are my "enemies."

    Can I really be praising a so-called "enemy" if I'm telling everyone who will listen that someone's a worse sinner than I am because of a doctrine that will be done away with in due course anyhow?

    Can I really be asking for God's blessing on those who persecute me when I engage in this behavior?

    Right to the very end, Jesus prayed for his enemies by using his last breaths to beg that his Father forgive them, because they had no idea what they were doing. Are we praying to that extent for those in power whose decisions and policies we may impact us negatively?

    So what about those who do believe that the Trinitarian argument best helps them understand the relationship between Jesus and Jehovah (more on that shortly)? Are we praying continuously that Jehovah spare them because they have no idea what they are doing as believers? That if not for that, they'd be wonderful fellow servants. Do we plead with Jehovah to spare them even as Abram pleaded for the men and women in Sodom and Gomorrah? Do we beg that He spare all of them if it would mean saving the lives of a few good ones.

    Isn't this what Jesus is described as doing for us? Acting as our intercessor before a Holy God in whose mere presence we would perish. We certainly deserve it for things much worse than believing in a particular argument about a particular subject that people have been arguing about for centuries— calling to mind the apostle Paul's admonition to not get all caught up in quarrels about words. Yet there go believers doing that very thing. I'm right--you're wrong, na-na na-na-na-na na-na.

    But listen: I believe Paul when he said that the divisions had to come. Even Abraham and Lot had to separate at one point to maintain peace in their families. How is that really any different with the various Christians groups on the world scene at any particular point since the massive fractures in what had long been a fully unified and orthodox Christianity under the authority of the Papacy and its bishopry—first between the Eastern and Western Orthodox, and later Lutheranism birthing Protestantism.

    You insist that Trinitarians are far worse for their beliefs at variance from your own, but their particular views about Jesus and Jehovah are only a single facet of their group. Even the Roman Catholic Church funds social programs ranging from adoption agencies to thrift stores for the poor in our communities—and you would have me believe that they are far worse than those Christians who would cover over molestation and abuse within their congregations? These ones have disowned the faith, so I am pretty sure that makes them worse than Trinitarian believers. You're welcome to disagree, of course.

    I do want to make clear that if I'm pointing my finger at anyone, it's us, collectively. Those who would emulate Jesus of Nazareth, now Messiah-King and Shepherd. It is we who should remember how, when the disciples got to arguing amongst themselves who was the greatest among them, Jesus had to remind them that it was the one who made himself least who was the greatest.

    Personally speaking, I've been a believer for 43 years and I can honestly say that I am the least deserving among men. Frankly, I have no idea why Jehovah has tolerated me as long as He has. Unless it's to make sure our cats get fed. :rolleyes:

    This is, as I understand the Trinitarian argumentation, a sorely oversimplified and stereotypical assertion. Yes, there are Trinitarians who, as you mentioned, hold that Jesus was really the incarnation of Jehovah while Creation ran on autopilot for 33 years (some sarcasm included, I know, I know). But not all. There are those "Trinitarian" believers who see the relationship between Jesus and Jehovah as one akin to the human family, where Jehovah is the father and Jesus is the son but both are of the same family in a way akin to my being a father to my sons, but they and I compose our particular family name. Our actions individually can impact the honor of our family, for better or worse.

    Regardless, if we're going to be judged as unworthy on the basis of what we don't understand rightly, then we are all in pretty big trouble since none of us have a perfect understanding (thankfully! that we might manifest what lies in our heart).

    ~~Earthbound
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    Brother Earthbound, did you write that all by your self? I don't think so, you had "Big" help. Joh:16:13. Let your "Brotherly" Love continue. Ro:12:9-11. Thanks for your hard work. May Jehovah's blessing and "LOVE" be with you and to all the Christian Family were ever they are. Regent
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Interesting thought... Do you see this scattering as part of Jesus recognition of the scattered sheep he spoke of, or do you see the current state of scattered sheep as fulfillment of any specific prophecy?

    All Christian love...
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    I'll explain what I know at this point in a separate topic to avoid derailing this one, if that's acceptable to everyone?

    ~~Earthbound
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Absolutely... :)
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    I wasn't going to get into this but:
    Let me throw in this commentary by James Burton Coffman on Luke 21:8-9. Notice how he capitalized “I AM” in the commentary. Coffman is a believer that Jesus was also Jehovah in the “OT” as Trinitarians believe. They use this to show that the “I AM” speaking to Moses said the same thing in Luke and other NT locations. (Ex 3:14, Mr 13:6, 14:62, Joh 6:35, 41, 48, 51, 8:12)

    Verses 8, 9 (KJV)
    And he said, Take heed that ye be led not astray: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and, The time is at hand: go ye not after them. And when ye shall hear of wars and tumults, be not terrified; for these things must needs come to pass first; but the end is not immediately.

    There were many historical fulfillments of the things mentioned here in the forty years preceding the destruction of Jerusalem. Such things as “wars and tumults,” however, were but the normal state of humanity; and even the earthquakes and natural disasters mentioned a moment later were all “par for the course,” as far as this world is concerned.

    One thing that has occasioned some questioning among scholars is Jesus’ prophecy of the many false christ’s who would come claiming to be “I AM,” and that “the time (of the End) is at hand.” Geldenhuys said;

    As far as can be ascertained, there were no persons who represented themselves as Christ during the years between the Ascension and 70 A.D. ... this refers to the last days before his Second Advent.

    Boles, however, mentioned that the whole country (during those years) “was overrun with magicians, seducers, impostors, etc., who drew the people after them into the wilderness, promising signs and wonders. There was also a pretended prophet, an Egyptian (Acts 21:38).

    If there were indeed no such people claiming to be “Christ” during the interval, Geldenhuys is correct in referring the words to the times prior to the End; but it is rash to conclude that there were no such claimants to Messiahship, whether or not we may be able to identify them. Spence stated that:

    Many of these pretenders appeared during the lifetime of the apostles ... Simon Magus was one (Acts 8). His rival Dositheus, and his disciple Meander were such ... Many of these false Messiahs appeared in the interval between the Ascension and the destruction of Jerusalem.

    In view of the prophecy of Jesus, and the known condition of the times, it would appear that the preponderance of evidence favors Spence’s view.

    By the very nature of this double prophecy, the same condition of false pretenders to Messiahship and deity will mark the approach of the final judgment; and it must be observed that our generation has already seen many such pretenders to divine honors.”

    My question is: If Jesus had been executed with a sword, guillotine, or firing squad, would you wear a sword, guillotine, or rifle around your neck, on a chain as jewelry to show you are a Christian?
     
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    marshroanoke

    marshroanoke Member

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    You should check out the Trinity debate over at reddit.com/r/jws. I attempted to find common ground with Trinitarians. I do believe that Jesus Christ and Jehovah God share the same divine essence. I do believe that Jehovah and Jesus can both be rightly called God. However, I cannot accept that Jesus and Jehovah are part of the same being. That runs contrary to Jesus statements while on earth. There is a clear separation of being and power level. Jesus never wanted to be put on the same level of Jehovah God, but that is exactly what the Trinity does. I firmly believe that the Bible points to the existence of two capital-G Gods: Jehovah and Jesus. The Trinity is a delusion promoted by Satan. I recognize that some are legitimately fooled by this delusion, but those that are exposed to the Truth and continue to hold onto the Trinity delusion will be judged. 1914 and the false presence is also an "operation of error" that will be exposed in due time. Those that continue to hold onto it will be judged just like those that hold on the Trinity doctrine.
     
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    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    So how did you change your mind about the false presence?
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Thanks, but no thanks. Debates over the Trinitarian dogma make my head hurt. o_O

    It stands to reason that if Satan was/is the god of world (or, system of things), then Jesus being appointed over all things would suggest that he has been elevated to an even greater godship than what Satan has enjoyed.

    And if memory serves, the Jewish didn't dispute the existence of other gods; it was simply their conviction that in comparison with Jehovah, such gods are all false. Even humans are gods in relation to those things placed in subjection to us (the animal kingdom, for example).

    I would only add my thoughts here that judgment does not necessarily lead to condemnation. Each will render an account, and the Judge Jehovah has appointed over those earnestly seeking Him will take all of the facts in the case under consideration, including the person's mental capacity, motivation, intentions, and what thing they did in harmony with being a follower of Jesus in spite of the erroneous thinking. (Cf Luke 12:47-48)

    In the meantime, we pray that Jehovah is merciful with all who have mistaken or erroneous views originating from any NUMBER of circumstances and factors, and we never want to look forward to seeing the destruction of those whom we think are thick-headed, stubborn people we think are more interested in upholding the Trinity or 1914 doctrines over other believers. We beg Jehovah to forgive them, because they really don't see it, and finally, we never get to thinking that we are somehow better than them (Luke 18:11) simply because we have been blessed to see through the illogical argumentation. After all, sure as sure we have our own blindspot, too. :oops:

    Are there those who militantly promote doctrines like 1914 and the Trinity? Of course! But we are to pray for those who treat us contemptuously over their doctrines. Jehovah sees what they are doing, and so does our Messiah-King and High Priest, Jesus. I can't think of anyone I would have more confidence in to settle matters with divine righteousness than those two.

    ~~Earthbound
     
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