Is the Watchtower gearing up for another false prophecy?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by BreakTheWalls, Jul 30, 2017.

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    john

    john Member

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    Quote - it's likely that this "sudden destruction" is not Armageddon, but the "death-stroke" initiating the rise of the Wild Beast – end quote


    Who all in the world will be affected by the death-stroke?


    [1 Thessalonians 5:3 Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.]


    According the that verse it is clear that the sudden destruction comes upon the ‘they’ that are saying “Peace and security!”… who are ‘they’?


    If the destruction is to come upon whomever ‘they’ are, is it reasonable to say that that destruction won’t come upon those that are not part of ‘they’?
     
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    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    After the two witnesses who tortured the earth for three years are killed and everyone celebrates their death, (Revelation 11) Then they will say peace and security, and Jesus will return to raise them from the dead and judge his temple and bring about Armageddon.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    The one problem I see with this framework is that the two witnesses are killed after the 1260 day period.

    Which means the "death-stroke" event of the current system has already occurred.

    Hmmm ... that said, maybe my synopsis was wrong, and 1 Thess 5 correlates with the latter part of Matthew 24... and not the beginning part (nor the death-stroke event which produces the Wild Beast)
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Quote - After the two witnesses who tortured the earth for three years are killed and everyone celebrates their death, (Revelation 11) Then they will say peace and security, and Jesus will return to raise them from the dead and judge his temple and bring about Armageddon. – end quote


    I am surprised to hear you say that because I actually had a few more questions in my post above that I decided to take out at the last minute because I didn’t want to jump to another line of thought that was not within the context of what I was quoting. Now the fact that you mentioned the two-witnesses, here are the other questions I removed.


    [Revelation 11:10 And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.]


    What would you say the mindset is of those that are rejoicing over the death of the two-witnesses?


    This event is said to occur at the end of the 42-months, does the death-stroke occur before the 42-months or after?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Might I ask, who are the ones our Lords return will be as a thief in the night? The premise of the virgins permeates all scripture, including this prophecy.

    The text in question;

    1Th 5:2 "For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night."

    But what is the context of the very next scripture?

    1Th 5:3 "Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them,"

    So again, how does the parable of the virgins play into this text?
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I suppose I did convert her LOL

    Date #1: if you don't believe there is a God this isn't going to work
    Date #100: Jehovah's Witnesses are basically correct in doctrine, ... and here is a copy of "Jehovah Himself Has Become King"

    (all of this was years before I had interaction with the Witnesses though -- I just knew about them and the basic doctrines from childhood, and found Robert online ~2003)

    Now she's baptized! .. and on the way home from the Kingdom Rules study ... it's basically a debunk discussion.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Directly? none

    By way of deduction, and this is an assumption I mentioned could be wrong a couple posts ago, I'm reasoning that the "thief like arrival" to the world is the death-stroke, and to Jehovah's people, the exposing of 1914 and initiation of the REAL judgment on God's house.

    Basically parts of Matthew 24 / 25 sync with the "sudden destruction"
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Did the bridegroom come at a time the unwise virgins were prepared for, and what is intended by the parable?

    Might I suggest that the day of the Lord is what is spoken of as coming as a thief?

    1Th 5:2 "for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

    And wouldn't you say this is reinforced by the second chapter of Thessalonians?

    2Th 2:2 "not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come."


    Might I ask what you mean by the exposure 1914 is in error, and how that would come about?

    Can you tell my how you connect the thief in the night with the death stroke?

    Thanks brother...
     
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    SingleCell

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    In short:

    economic collapse / war = death-stroke = "sudden destruction" which will produce:

    - the debunking of 1914, necessarily, as the whole framework pivots on the return of Jesus and death-stroke occurring in 1914
    - "sudden destruction" upon this current world system, out of which proceeds the "wild beast"

    This being the "day of the Lord" and his initiation of the final 1335 days, the events of 2 Thess 2 which is the judgment on God's household.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So I haven't convinced you yet the 1290 days in Dan 12:11 are the time frame in between the two events yet huh?

    Do you see the 1335 days separate then the 1260 and 1290?
     
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    SingleCell

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    I'm non-committal :)

    "And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time"

    So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.”

    “[The Gentiles] will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth”

    "“And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days."

    "“Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!"

    One 1335 period total:

    1150 days + 110 days = 1260 days + 30 days = 1290 days + 45 days = 1335 days
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What do your 110 days represent, and where do they come from?

    An evening and a morning in the creative days were a full day were they not? The context is a full day right?

    I'm not sure how well you know my work... but we agree on the 1260-1335 if you are saying they all start the same day.

    If you see the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing placed as the same event, what are the 1290 days for?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    (Benson Commentary)

    "Daniel 12:11-12. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away — It is here declared, that the whole time that these calamities would last, should run somewhat beyond a time, times, and half a time, namely, thirty days beyond it; for a time, times, and a half signify only twelve hundred and sixty days, whereas here twelve hundred and ninety is mentioned as the term of duration; for which space of time, but not longer, the daily sacrifice should be taken away, or prohibited, and an idol be placed in the temple. Blessed is he that waiteth, or survives, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days — This period is forty-five days longer than the term last mentioned, or the twelve hundred and ninety days; and, if taken literally, and interpreted of the time of Antiochus’s persecution, is supposed to be spoken of the time of his death, when the Jewish nation was not only delivered from their calamities, but also from all fear of their being renewed."
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary)

    "11. from … sacrifice … taken way … abomination—(Da 11:31). As to this epoch, which probably is prophetically germinant and manifold; the profanation of the temple by Antiochus (in the month Ijar of the year 145 B.C., till the restoration of the worship by Judas Maccabeus on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month [Chisleu] of 148 B.C., according to the Seleucid era, 1290 days; forty-five days more elapsed before Antiochus' death in the month Shebat of 148 B.C., so ending the Jews' calamities [Maurer]); by pagan Rome, after Christ's death; by Mohammed; by Antichrist, the culmination of apostate Rome. The "abomination" must reach its climax (see Auberlen's translation, "summit," Da 9:27), and the measure of iniquity be full, before Messiah comes."
     
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    SingleCell

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    Possible. Let me ponder the alternative a bit.

    1150 days would be 2300 sacrifices (the morning and evening sacrifice being the reference)

    Just the math from 1150 to 1260; I have no event to subscribe here. (maybe there is though - could be good research topic)

    Hmmm ... pondering required. There is an interim period after the two witnesses are killed (at 1260)

    "I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth"

    "“And from the time that the constant feature*+ has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place,+ there will be 1,290 days."

    “How long will the vision of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation continue, to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?” 14 So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.”
     
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    SingleCell

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    I need to research your quoted frameworks a bit, interesting -- thanks for sharing bro
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Keep in mind brother, there are at least two attacks, one beginning the trampling of the city, and the second when the two witnesses are killed, we know these events are separated by 1260 days. So when your reading prophecy we need to determine if the text is speaking of the holy people being dashed to pieces or the city being trampled on, these we know 100% are separated by 1260 days. Starting the 42 months the city is trampled, and this is the time of the nations for those 42 months, and then at the end of this time the two witnesses are killed. The beast turns on them and kills them 42 months after the constant feature is removed, think about that as to all prophecy...

    So just that alone tells you there is more then one attack spoken of throughout all prophecy. We know this by the first two fulfillment's of these prophecies, from the Maccabean Revolt to the Jewish War. Taking the Jewish war for example, what happen first before the temple was sacked in 70? The city was surrounded in 66CE, right? Two separate events... And it was the first event the early Christians were looking for to flee, the city surrounded, not the temple being destroyed, that was too late!

    This is as basic as I can make the information at this moment, but brother, this is the beginning of the understanding of Dan 12:11...
     
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    john

    john Member

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    [1 Thessalonians 5:3 Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.]

    According the that verse it is clear that the sudden destruction comes upon the ‘they’ that are saying “Peace and security!”… who are ‘they’?

    Why would any being saying "Peace and security" at a time of "economic collapse / war = death-stroke???

    If the destruction is to come upon whomever are saying “Peace and security", is it reasonable to say that that destruction won’t come upon those that are not saying “Peace and security"?
     
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    SingleCell

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    Your questions expose my assumptions :)

    The assumptions:

    - "they" are the emerging global construct and it's "spirit" on the internet
    - "peace and security" in the middle east? or perhaps between east and west through a financial construct like bitcoin?

    After the "death-stroke" of this sudden destruction the wild beast emerges and locks down economic transactions between it's expressed citizens.

    Which again eludes to a bitcoin-esque idea whereby a "gateway" to transactions are established by this beast system.
     

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