I have sinned: I read the Bible.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Baruq, Jul 16, 2017.

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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    I had a discussion with my brother, who is an elder, and this one went badly. I also think that I have not mastered myself, that I should have avoided talking about certain things. But the fact is that he reproaches me for studying the Bible. Indeed, while I was saying that we should not accept everything we are told, he told me that he does not agree, that it is not our job to study the Bible, but that it is that of the Governing Body. According to him, the GB members are like the Apostle Paul and have their reward assured in heaven. As I did not want to admit it, he got angry. He ordered me to speak to the elders of my congregation, which I did not, of course. After a few days, he phoned me to say that he was asking the elders to meet me. An elder has already called to tell me that he wants to come home to give me the badges for the assembly, which seems to me a big excuse because I do not see why he should come for that, seeing that usually they are distributed in the KH!
    So here is the sin for which I can not and want not repent: I read the Bible!
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    Amen. Christian Love and may Jehovah Bless you Baruq, Regent, ps. continue reading your Bible. Another Amen
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I would probably blow them off, as if they don't know what their talking about. I wouldn't have time for that. If anyone asks me what's going on I would simply say "I have no idea what your talking about."

    Simply put I follow Psm 1:1,2 and read day and night, and as the Boreans, search that these things are so...

    That is ridiculous brother, and that's exactly what I would tell them and walk off, what can they do? Nothing...
     
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    ExLuther

    ExLuther New Member

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    Oh, dear. I'm sorry you're going through this! I was just discussing this with my hubby the other day - how much to say and what not to say, etc etc. We're being heavily pursued to go lot in the ministry on Saturdays, which is hard for me. Mainly as my work is often on Saturdays, which is why it's not a habit we're in.... I go in service now and then and I witness informally any chance I can get. I report maybe 4-6 hours a month. We have new service groups and the new overseer is really after us. I know it's all well meaning, but I struggle with it as I just don't think I can defend everything properly in an honest manner if confronted about it...

    He recently told me, "it's not me who wants you to go out, it's Jehovah." Well, I feel that Jehovah wants us to make his name known and teach about his son, which I do... It's the GB that wants me to do it THEIR WAY.

    Paying for you, brother, for a speedy and peaceful end to this matter. ♡♡ I think it's terrible to think that the GB is supposed to do our scripture study FOR US. Isn't that part of what made such a corrupt mess of the Catholic church?!
     
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    Orchid

    Orchid New Member

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    Gosh, it's getting really hard, I will pray for you brother. Hang in there.
     
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    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    I just posted on Reddit a similar situation that I have had the last two days.

    My brother called the elders and started telling them everything I said, one thing he said that stood out was when he qouted me as saying "we should only read the Bible." He complained to the elders because I said this.

    Anyways, he had an outburst and started yelling at me as if I had killed his first born, said I sinned against the holy Spirit, called me an Apostate, said I wasn't going to Paradise, claimed God isn't helping me because I have less than he does. "I guess God is helping LeBron James more than anyone." 5 constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain... I have seen this mentality in so many brothers and talks, they really think that Jehovah is will provide them with material gain for godly devotion, yet Paul was practically living on the streets.

    Then I had another elder from my old hall that my brother was leaking everything I said too in order to warn all my friends of my apostasy. And pretty much everyone has stopped speaking to me, my brother then tried getting me to meet with the elders, I said I would only do it if they read my 27 page essay, he refused to comply. It is probably because they are afraid of being stumbled and ignorance is bliss.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2017
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    It seems that we have the same brother:p. When I told him about the prophecy of the wall that must fall in Isaiah, he started to shout and get very angry. He said that if that would have been Jehovah's will that we understand that prophecy, he would give his spirit to the GB to write something in the Watchtower. At that I said that if Jehovah had inspired men to wrote prophecies, there is a good reason, and we should study them. But the answer is always the same; the only thing we have to do, is preaching from door to door.
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    Wow what a mess you guys are enduring!
    How terrible this is its no different then the spanish inqusition! Gentlemen and ladys you know how to abstain from sin and do the positive action jesus taught!

    You know the bible is gods word! And this is not the time to cave in to preasure.
    When someone trys to tell me that somebody else is supposed to study for me and decide what the group or gb or sanheidrin!!! Wants me to do I politly will find an excuse to end the conversation!

    Excuse me brother but ive got to get ready i have to go do some return visits i will see you at the meeting.

    Guys ladys you were trained! Not one of the apostles said hey go form a governing body and sit around and listen to them!

    If you get busy doing jehovahs work in the way that jehovah has equipt for you then you can avoid the busybodys that think its their job to tell you what jehovah wants you to do!

    Heck you and me both know that they have no earthly idea themselves! But dont tell them that! May god bless you im done!
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    So, two elders came to visit me this morning. They gave me the badges for the congress, and encouraged me to continue to frequent the KH. Then they read Matthew 24:45 and ask me if, in my opinion, the faithful and discreet slave gives good advices. Obviously, I answered yes. How could I disagree with Jesus’ words? Fortunately, they did not ask me if I was in agreement with the fact that the GB is the faithful and discreet slave. They remained 30 minutes, we talked about the tomatoes of my garden and the rocket stove that I have built in my living room:p. Yes, a very encouraging visit!
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
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    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    They're like Don Corleone's henchmen, sent to make you an offer you can't refuse, making sure you know your place in the family.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What a strange question...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    They tried to trick you brother, to stumble you, what a rotten thing to plan out with premeditation...

    I mean, this really smells bad on their part, and they should be absolutely ashamed. May Jehovah deal with this kind of blatant witch hunting mentality, and he rebuke them...

    They were only playing nice to you after that because they believe you admitted the GB was the faithful slave, while in reality that is not what they asked.

    Not only were they disrespectful to you, they were also dumb.
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    In my situation, there was only one elder who was particularly antagonistic during the time I went through the Watchtower organization's "judicial" process. I actually felt sorry for him, even as he was trying to rile me with accusations and off-the-cuff remarks unbefitting a follower of Jesus or a servant of Jehovah. The other two said nothing as it happened, nor was I really expecting them to. It was the first time I think I ever saw the elder's real personality that hid beneath smiles and reassuring hand on shoulders and his prominence in the congregation, and I felt sorry for him.

    I wasn't angry with them, but rather the system behind them. I was cut-off from fellowship for asking questions and explaining that the cursory answers I was being offered didn't even address the questions, much less explain the why of it. They never even looked at, much less considered helping me understand where I was wrong in my seeing incongruencies, etc.

    What do you think the odds are of our living to see a Watchtower organization and its leadership admit it was ever wrong or that they are sorry for disfellowshipping brothers and sisters over a doctrine or policy that they later realized the brothers and sisters were correct in bringing to their attention, and seek forgiveness.

    But I remind you, the system is the problem here, not the people. Not all of them, anyhow. There are some bad seeds. Even Jesus had a betrayer in his midst.

    May I inquire how long you have been a member of the organization, Baruq? And I get the impression, BreaktheWalls, that you're a member, too? Or was? If either of you don't mind sharing that with me, that is.

    ~~Earthbound
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    My father was baptized in '66, I was baptized in '85 when I was 20. So I can say that I had always knew the Organization.
    I never had big problem, I was 11 in the end of '75 and I don't remember issues in our congregation about that date. Nobody was talking about seriously. And my mother promised me a long play from my favorite singer in september 75 if I would work well at school; if she was believing in the end in October, she would not have worried about my results:p:p.
    I had have some little problem while I was a pioneer because of sisters who had nothing else to do than talk about you and point your defects, or repeat lies; but the circuit overseer once told me to not pay attention neither to the elders of the congregation themselves! Good old times!
     
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    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    Everyone here is a baptized JW.

    I've been in since 2008.
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    I take it Titus 2:3-5 doesn't come up very much in the local needs talks?

    It sounds like your mother helped you to appreciate not getting caught up in date-setting and the over-emphasis on prophetic interpretation. Others seemed to be willing to quit jobs and sell homes and put off important decisions because of the inferences made by highly-respected leaders in the Watchtower organization in the years leading up to 1975, but such ones appear to have been in the minority, given the movement's continued existence— unlike the Great Disappointment of 1844.

    ~~Earthbound
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    It must be challenging for you to hear things from the platform that contradict your personal examination of the scriptures.

    This was one of the most difficult experiences for me, because the Watchtower excels at helping the brothers and sisters see many of the problems with the theology of other followers of Jesus in other groups, and even encourages us to become adept at "conversation stoppers" that might arise. The surprise came when I was made to realize that this investigative spirit is encouraged ONLY in regards to other Christians and that questions about what the Watchtower wants Jehovah's Witnesses to believe are ONLY okay until baptism. After that, the brother or sister should no longer "doubt" anything that is published by the Watchtower's leadership.

    Of course, "doubt" is used to describe approaching everything as though it isn't true... but that was never the case with me: I examined matters to make sure they were true. Mistakes happen, it's a part of the human condition. Views change with additional facts and information. "New light" was sometimes a return to "old light" because the "old light" was a more sound exposition on an interpretation or doctrine.

    In any case, I learned some valuable lessons about being a part of what experts describe as a "high control" religion— which simply means that the people at the top are above correction or reproach from the general population of the group, and have in place penalties for members who contest the leadership's conclusions, however inaccurate those conclusions might be.

    ~~Earthbound
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I imagine the odds are meager at best. I can't recall an apology from the WT ever being made previously...
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Unfortunately, I must agree with you on the odds. Nor have I ever recalled an apology ever being uttered publicly or published in any of the literature.

    This, in itself, I find interesting, because it demonstrates a lack of the very quality which Jesus said was essential for one of his followers: humility.

    Admitting error is not, as the world conveys, a sign of weakness for the believer, but an admission of one's own inadequacy apart from Jehovah.

    Personally, I cannot claim to know what the "fallout" would be if the leadership were to admit to being fellow slaves who themselves are not above correction from the rest of us (how many times can we identify when Jehovah tried to correct the leaders of His people by raising up a prophet (who was simply sounding a warning call) from the least-expected quarters?). Would brothers and sisters be stumbled? I imagine so, given that some remain with a view to the times, rather than because it's what we ought to be doing regardless whether the End is coming this year, in the next 3.5 years, 7 years, or even in our lifetime.

    There would likely be those brothers and sisters who are stumbled by such an admission of error from the leadership, because these ones have elevated the leadership to a such a level that for the "faithful and discreet slave" or "governing body" to get something wrong would result in a catastrophic stumbling of that brother or sister. That usually manifests as "Well, if they were wrong about that, then they're probably wrong about a lot of other things, too!" and out goes the baby with the bathwater. It isn't like we don't have counsel from the Bible's writers to avoid placing our confidence in men, though. But humans are, after all, human.

    But I just so happen to believe that if the leadership does ever humble itself and seek forgiveness from those who have been cut-off from fellowship, that the brothers and sisters, in harmony with the apostle Paul's counsel, would blanket the brothers in position of oversight and leadership with overflowing love and compassion. (Cf 2 Corinthians 2:7)

    ~~Earthbound
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The unfortunate part about this is the catch 22 the WT has put itself in. While claiming the WT is a spiritual paradise, that leaves no room for error...
     

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