How were Jehovah's Witnesses led by God if the leadership has been a false prophet since the start?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by BreakTheWalls, Jul 21, 2017.

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    BreakTheWalls

    BreakTheWalls Guest

    Some claim that Jehovah selected the JWs, but that would mean he was actively supported a false prophet.

    I just can't come to terms with the thought that Jehovah was guiding them when Luke 21:8 specifically says to stay away from anyone who claims the "due" time is near (timelines, dates, etc.) And since they have made claims since day one that the due time is near, what does this mean for JWs place in God's plan?

    When you consider this along with 2 Thessalonians 2, I conclude that Jehovah's Witnesses made themselves God's people by their own will via their Christian lifestyle, not that Jehovah chose them and this led them to truths they teach, because if he can do that, why wouldn't he stop the 1914 nonsense? Unless he deliberately allows them to believe the lie like 2 Thessalonians 2 says, but Jehovah cannot be tried with evil things.

    Maybe Jehovah did lead them to all right knowledge, but Satan has somehow managed to keep 1914 alive?
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    We must remember that Jehovah also chose Israel to “be His people.”
    And I will take you for Myself for a people, and I will be a God for you. And you shall know that I am Jehovah your God, the One bringing you out from under the burdens of Egypt.” (Ex 6:7 LITV)

    There are no people on earth without sin. No one is perfect. Jehovah allows these errors to prove we need His government to rule over mankind. He also allows Satan to do what he chooses. This is where faith comes into play.(Lu 4:5-8)
     
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    BreakTheWalls

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    B
    But Moses wasn't a false prophet.

    Israel was a promise made to Abraham by Jehovah, JWs weren't really selected for anything special like that. Israel was prophesied, JWs were not.

    I'm not arguing you, but I have to consider every point.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    In my opinion, both arguments are true.

    JWs are not special in the way they (well, the Watchtower) claims.

    In the second half of human history (post-Christ), anyone from any nation is acceptable to Jehovah, through faith in his son Jesus.

    Yet Jehovah's Witnesses have a uniquely maligned baseline doctrine (which happens to be true), and a faith absolutely and unarguablly unique on this earth; no war, no Nicea, only the Kingdom. "keep seeking the kingdom"

    Church-ianity is dead-money.

    And somebody has to be stomped by the nations states for refusing to engage in their Satanic wars, during the conclusion, on Christian grounds. (my interpretation)

    We'll see where this goes;

    "Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."
     
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    marshroanoke

    marshroanoke Member

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    You insist on calling all the men taking the lead false prophets. You're fair to feel that way, but is it a balanced accusation to make? Consider all the spiritual light that Br. Russell brought to the world by spreading a theology that wasn't tainted by Church doctrines. Was he right in all matters? No. But was his message a lot purer than what the Churches were spitting out? Absolutely. And all those to follow Russell...can you just throw them all into that category of false prophets? Let's not let our awakening to the flaws in this religion cause us to throw our religion's pioneers under the bus.

    I think we can all agree here that the GB behaves in a prophet-like way by asserting its Bible interpretations as definitive and spirit-guided. The history of incorrect direction by the GB shows that they are not the definitive voice for Christ, because our heavenly leader doesn't send incorrect direction. But you can't really compare the attitude of the modern day GB to Russell's time. I am certain that spiritual discussion was a lot freer in those times. After all, the religion was founded on questioning religious authority. It took decades for the organization to become the rigid, unquestioned structure we know today. My parents recall in the 1970s that the religion was in many ways less dogmatic and authoritative. The GB continues to consolidate its authority over the group.

    Having said all these things, the GB are still acting as the lead in this organization, and the organization has produced fine fruits. Today, our religion continues to distinguish itself by staying clean of the filth in politics, military violence, and paganism. We tend to focus on the flaws of the organization, but the organization of men has been necessary in mobilizing the preaching campaign. You don't have to blindly "listen, obey, be blessed" but we should keep with this imperfect organization. It is clearly the closest thing to God's temple on earth.

    As you said, Moses wasn't a prophet. However, God still expected the Israelites to follow his imperfect lead. So, why should today be any different? Isn't God capable of setting matters straight if there is corruption in his temple? Shouldn't we wait for him to make necessary change to his temple? Until that time, wouldn't it be best to respectfully accept the GB as our lead? It is for sure a great exercise in HUMILITY but God sees our heart condition. He sees we are "sighing and groaning" about what we see in his temple.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Absolutely true. This cannot be understated as both an accomplishment, and sign.

    "love among THEMSELVES" too ... no group like JWs for this

    (I've been to lots-o-churches, JWs are uniquely in love with each other LOL)
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    "false prophecy" is expected.

    I'm a false prophet for attempting interpretations in the same way the Watchtower is, so while I do think they are on a different level of "wrongness", I can't condemn them without being a hypocrite myself.

    Don't let that stumble you; it's A) expected and B) necessary, as you well know

    2 Thess 2
    Matthew 24
    Luke 21
    Ezekiel 13
    Isaiah 28 - 29
    Revelation 12, 13

    One doesn't end up in sackcloth speaking from the dust without cause!
     
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    marshroanoke

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    But you don't punish those who disagree with your views.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Not that you're aware of :)

    Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

    All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and sea creatures are being tamed and have been tamed by mankind, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

    With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

    [​IMG]
     
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    BreakTheWalls

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    Every governing body member is a false prophet, except Ray Franz, he's the only one who realized it was wrong, no matter how much good they do, it is what they are, it is a fact, just like someone who fornicates is a fornicator, the Governing Body prophesies falsely, they are a false prophet.

    They don't stay out of politics (UN).

    Whether Russell had good intentions or not, someone reading Luke 21:8 in his time would have stayed clear from him and his associates. This is the contradiction no one is addressing here. How can you say you are sent by God, yet the Bible says to avoid people of your very nature?

    I never said Moses wasn't a prophet, he was, I said he wasn't a false prophet. Moses was hand selected by Jehovah, the Watchtower was not. He did not have an imperfect doctrine, discern the difference between every day human imperfections and imperfect Doctrine, which the Israelites did not have. That is why today is different. We don't have Jehovah splitting oceans in half via the Governing Body. They are not our lead, for the presence of the lawless one is by Satan. how can you follow a false prophet? The inquirer's guilt is just as much as the one Prophesying (Ezekiel, 13, 14). The only thing I will say regarding the Governing Body, are Jesus' words "Do as the Pharisees say, not as they do, for they are in Moses' seat". What does the Governing Body want from me? I will not be a priest for them, I don't like it that way (Jeremiah 5:31). So what is there for me to do as they say? Sit in the meeting twice a week and make a comment? I don't believe their false prophecies nor do I want to represent their false teachings. So how should I submit myself to these men, other than preaching, which is a commandment?

    Honestly, today, if a witness starts talking to you about 1914 at the door and you want to learn about the Bible, then you stumble across Luke 21:8 while studying, what do you do?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    It depends on what your trying to accomplish...

    Our fellow JW will be thinking this;

    Rom 16:17 "I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them."

    And in reality, this may apply to us;

    Jms 4:1 "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?"

    It is my opinion that in this world, in our day, we are better to wait for our Lord and the miracles to come, for you will NOT change a JW's mind, you will only cause strife, and division. What do you have to prove to them? Should we quarrel with brothers? Keep your faith within yourself dear brother, we have no need to prove it to others...
     
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    John S

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    Joshua,

    Do you realize how sad that is? And others...'There is only love among Jehovah's Witnesses, I know'...

    Yes, it's true. In the 70's the WT Organization was much less controlling, happy, and friendly . Much more love and hope and expectation among us all. We went out in service expecting to start studies, and DID!

    And many millions of studies were engaged in America, everywhere.

    But you may not realize why...or what was driving us then. True, we had a new knowledge ...about God, Jehovah, not the trinity lies. We were free of Hellfire fears, the Paradise earth was so appealing....AND CLOSE! ...we thought.

    It wasn't the 1914 date...that was irrefutable. The 'sign ' Jesus gave occurred, right on time. It was the 1975 prophecy that hit the reality as the mirror falls and shatters into many sharp and dangerous pieces. Once that prophecy didn't occur, well, all the work done in the 60's and 70's was tested as to fitness. Many, many of the 'studies'....quit, and gradually left the JW's and went back into daily routines, associating with families(whom they had turned away from as 'bad associations), went back to college and got degrees and good jobs, for a change instead of janitorial businesses, or lawn mowing...

    When I started in 1970, there were 1.4 million Witnesses. That number grew to I think about 4 million by 1975....it was huge. But 1975 was a false prophecy. The worst kind. Predicting the end of the world is always too risky, and unscriptural. Jesus said it, 'No man knows the day nor the hour, but the father'.

    But to say now, that being under the ...not umbrella...not in the shade of....protection of....

    but tyranny and threats of the 'FDS' , and that this is Jehovah's only religion!? That's when WT's teeth...their canines began to grow ...and the darkness began to creep over the religion, and the 'fruit' began to rot from the inside...and from the top down. I know, I was there through it all.

    'Those worshiping him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Indeed the Father is looking for us.'...

    We , who love God and Christ, must never stop talking about the word of God. If a religion insists we shut up, and just do and believe we must march to their orders, and do what they say...they have usurped Jesus command here; "worship in spirit and in truth"....

    and ...AND.....you must LOVE one another!

    LOVE means you don't tell others to stop speaking about your understanding of the scriptures, especially, as in my case, all I do is quote Jesus' words as 'my truth'.

    WT has no irons on me, and no gag around my neck covering my mouth. I go into whatever church I want, and every chatroom I can, and speak the things Christ says to speak..loudly. Regardless of what men say!

    And you know what? I have always found people here on this site, and every one , who say , "Yes, that is right".

    That is your answer brothers and sisters; preach and teach Jesus' message, and you will always find in every church and every kingdom Hall, people will agree. Maybe not many at Kingdom halls, but then...you'll have to decide , "Why am I here , then? If these ones don't want to hear what Jesus taught?"

    Would I crawl back 'in', just to find comfort in numbers? My relatives?

    No, for one thing, I am a true 'apostate' ...the Bible and God's truth I have drank for 10 years...there is no shackle going on my mind again. But I have a new master; Christ direct, and new friend- the holy spirit. These are enough if I NEVER find another. As they are

    True

    loyal

    never betray, threaten, or give me false prophecies and demand I go out in the world and preach them

    So, Joshua, don't feel blue. There are many Christians here, and everywhere, who do not do everything their religion, if they are in one, tells them. But many just read their Bibles, and pray, and God knows where every single one of them is. And don't you worry....Jesus will come for them at Armageddon, or dig their bones and DNA up out of the ground at the Resurrection, and bring us all together into the light and life of a new day.

    But, in the meantime. Just keep on this website, all of you...and DO NOT STOP SPEAKING what you know is spirit and truth WORSHIP of God and his Son.

    This is freedom!

    "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Gal. 5:1
     
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    BreakTheWalls

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    Paul had to set the record the straight numerous times. I agree with e-watchman in this aspect. This has to be preached to all JWs, they must be made aware, so if that day comes when they have to make a decision, they'll remember what was said to them. The fantasy of ignorance for the sake of peace isn't realistic. Ezekiel 13,14
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    Guys ive spoke on this before but im going to say it again! A wicked genereation of perverts seek signs! But they will get none but the sign of jonah.

    Jehovah has appointed jehovahs wittnesses to be his modern day jonah!

    Was ninevah destroyed in 40 days like jonah preached? No! But it was destroyed
    213 years later!

    Did armagedon come in 1975 like was preached? No millions repented and jehovah awarded more time!


    Hey what ever happened to that jonah guy?

    His job was over! We read about him sulking in the desert then he fades away from further comment!

    Hey what happened to those jehovahs wittnesses? They preached their 1975 messege but they just cant seem to accept that jehovah used them for his own good will and now they can quit sulking in the desert and being angry over their embarassing time!

    Move on become usefull to jehovah leave plenty of study material available and personal help to those that ask but

    Stop standing in the middle of ninevah shouting ok it wasent exactly 40 days it could have been 41 or 43 armegedons can come any second better get ready! Its over
    You did you job!tell jehovah mission acomplished lord what else can we do?

    Me pretending to be jehovah with loud booming voice!

    Go to the watchtower building and demand the money i set aside for you! While you were working in the desert pay off your houses and bills and enjoy a vacation you have earned it!

    Pour yourself a tall cold coors beer and lift up you voices in song get out your drums play those guitars and enjoy a time of rest.

    Bake 8 prune cakes and offer them with your thanks to the governing body! Take from them
    their rolex watchs and place them on the wrists of 8 able bodied men and anoint those men with allspice cologne
    And say you are jehovahs new leaders of the watchtower society !

    Darn this is sounding really cool here!

    Now move along move along! No more beer!
     
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    John S

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    Since many JW's are scared to death they'll 'catch a demon' by going into a church.....I'll show you what God sees; normal people enjoying worshiping God and using their voices in song to praise the Son. Tell me, do you think theses are "evil people who do not have love, like the JW's only have?"

     
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    BreakTheWalls

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    There is no proof of this.
     
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    BreakTheWalls

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    Those people are mixing pagan doctrine with God's.

    I care not of motives, I don't care if the Governing body had good motives, I don't care if these church goers have good motives. I want the truth and I want nothing to do with pagan practices and false prophecies.

    It seems at this point in time, it is better to just preach the good news and withdraw from all organized religion.

    Get out of her my people if you don't want to share in her sins.

    I might as well be disfellowshipped, since I am treated as an Apostate by everyone who knows me. Which is fine, but it is clear, Jehovah's Witnesses are not interested in what the Bible says about their false prophecies and it is clear Christendom doesn't care what the Bible says about their false teachings and practices.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I concur; still go to meetings, and will continue to, but I've definitely "checked out" from the Watchtower nonsense, and everyone around me knows it :)

    I've straight-up told local elders that 1914 cannot possibly be true, but did it gently and with sensitivity towards not stumbling / arguing.

    They've accepted my position and leave me alone. (mostly) and I accept their position and leave them alone (mostly)

    Still lots of love in my congregation between me and them.

    Good times!

    I will say I have a hard time defending Jehovah's Witnesses these days, at least publicly; hence you don't see me on Reddit much (etc)

    I take a lot of comforting knowing the Bible is true, Jehovah is more merciful than I am, and the kingdom IS INDEED coming.
     
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    SingleCell

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    Put the Jehovah's Witnesses view on the church system into perspective:

    at the time Russell began his ministry, the church system was controlled opposition to the Bible, in effect.

    Now they've lost most of their power over society and minds, so there is a bit of resurgence of basic Christianity.

    Still holding onto Nicea and Satanic anti-God doctrines though.
     
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