Among other things Jehovah had communicated to the angel of Philadelphia this.... Because you kept the word about my endurance,*+ I will also keep you (which would no doubt include those who are in the Philadelphia congregation) from the hour of test,+ which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth. Revelation 3:10 Could this "hour of test" be the time period of "the mark of the beast"? It seems that it would coincide with the 10 kings that will rule with the beast for the last hour (symbolically) of the system as depicted in Daniel 7 and the fourth beast? This sounds like a test of love for those left remaining on the earth that did not receive the protection from God mentioned in the third chapter statement to the angel of Philadelphia as those would be "kept" from the "hour of test". How will people react when they see a person suffering because they did not have the mark so as to be able to "buy or sell". Will they help them at their own peril, because no doubt that will be a capital crime at that time to help in that way. Or, will they put their own selfish interest's first and not show the type of self sacrificing love that Jesus will be looking for as in his parable of the "sheep and the goats". If he sees people showing that kind of love, it will be as though they had shown it to him and he will invite them to stand along with those on his right hand (with the sheep). Remember, it is the angels of God that will do the separating and harvesting in the conclusion of this system of things, so they will not actually need a physical mark to determine who will be harvested and who will be bundled up as bundles of weeds for the fire. But, since Satan will be confined to the earth at this time he will no longer have the heavenly perspective and will need to have an actual physical sign to distinguish between the two groups that will inhabit the earth at that time. So, I think the answer is both. There will be those who will actually have some sort of sign (whether that is a chip, an ID card, a tattoo or whatever) and those that will have a symbolic sign (which represents a salvation covenant) on their foreheads that the angels have already distinguished. The statement about buying gold from Jesus was not made to the general populace but was made "only" to the angel of Laodicea and his congregation who have found themselves "naked" or outside of a salvation covenant and also found themselves "blind" (spiritually) and in need of "eye salve" to restore their spiritual eyesight that had been lost. So, whereas buying from Jesus has a more symbolic aspect to it, buying and selling at the end of this system of things has a much more literal feel to it.
Self interpretation, in other words, an interpretation influenced by your own reasoning? I think this might be impossible to avoid, and not even a problem in the first place The Holy Spirit works with our spirit and "leads us to all truth". Let's just call it an "act of submission to the beast". Whether symbolic in some cases (bowing) or spiritual in others (bowing inside) the point is an act of submission. Recall the other two identifiers: the mark the name of the wild beast the number of its name This is the most interesting part I think: "This is where it calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a man’s number, and - its number is 666." Why not? I don't hold to the rule-set of "only one possibility"! Perhaps your self interpretation is getting in the way eh? hahah I jest, I jest. I see no problem saying "the wild beast symbolic for a literal human kingdom" and "mark on the forehead of Jehovah's people" is symbolic, and the "mark of the beast is symbolic and literal". None of that strikes me as "off the wall" or "self interpretation". Do you mean that literally or spiritually? Yes, and no, in that order As in it's available now? (or soon) Or do you mean Catholics have it now, and anyone "worshiping" the Papacy has it now? "who were worshipping its image" in your Babylon framework? Doesn't that mean: Satan can trick the world for thousands of years, those people being resurrected because they acted in ignorance and under Satan's influence, but Billy Parker down the street is gone forever because "this trick" (the mark) of associating with Catholicism and the Papacy whooshed over his head? That doesn't make sense to me in terms of justice, it relegates one persons judgment under Christ and another capricious and based on "when and where they were born". (maybe I'm misreading you though, assembling your comments with your Babylon framework) "whole world" is an idiom - yes, it means those within its influence. Same as: "the whole world is under the control of the evil one" - 1 John 5:19
Did you read my connection to Solomon and 666? "Post #23" I have come to understand that scripture can explain itself a long ways before we need to give our own understanding into it. That scripture has it's own rules in order to interpret it. IMO Again, it's been my opinion that the Bible definitely has a rule-set that it follows, but again, that's just me. Thinking it doesn't means that one could interpret what ever they want, such as numbers could be literal or metaphor depending on ones desire, etc... On and on, and this is why 2000 years of interpretation without cracking it. I believe the text is directed to the anointed. The first four trumpets to those of the anointed who worship correctly, and those in the bowls who fall and receive the mark of Solomon, 666. It is my opinion that these ones who receive the mark are the ones who have defiled themselves with other women. Rev 14:4 "These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins." Therefore since you know my beliefs on the Holy See, then what occurs here is some of the anointed at Bethel in some way align themselves with the women, and that is how they receive their mark. Notice in the first bowl they are seen with the mark, and this is before the fifth bowl, when the beast goes into the abyss. These anointed start going beyond Jehovah's commands just like Solomon when he was taking in 666 talents of gold, and this along with their alliance with the women causes these anointed ones to commit spiritual adultery. The text is about the holy ones, not the whole world... IMO
Do you even understand the concept of a "metaphor" or "symbolic" meaning. You use a "metaphor" to describe a real thing in terms that your hearer will understand or comprehend (made easier). So, a metaphor is just a tool to explain something real. When we are in a salvation covenant with God it is as though we are physically marked (but we are not actually "marked") when we put on an outer garment it shows that we have our priestly garb on, but we don't actually have to wear such a robe to denote that because these are "spiritual" metaphors that describe "spiritual things". People though cannot see spiritual things so you have to have an actual physical sign to denote things that are metaphorically spoken of. It's like the sons of Skeva mentioned in Acts 19. The demons could see that they did not have a "spiritual mark" on them that identified them as ones who were "born again" or "alive". Jesus, they knew and they were aware of who Paul was (as they could see that he was "alive" or "born again", but the Sons of Skeva had no such marking. Of course people could not distinguish between the two because they don't see "spiritual" things, but if they had a physical mark they could see it. Now there were seven sons of a Jewish chief priest named Sceʹva doing this.15 But in answer the wicked spirit said to them: “I know Jesus+ and I am acquainted with Paul;+ but who are you?”16 At that the man with the wicked spirit leaped on them, overpowered them one after the other, and prevailed against them, so that they fled naked and wounded out of that house. The (spiritual) marks that Christians have are not seen by people, but the angels (both wicked and holy) can see them. The marks that humans have from humans are physical and therefore can be seen by both humans and angels.
Trust me, I know and understand this concept, it's exactly the way I once understood. What I have been discussing here is what I have moved on to understand currently after all these years, and that is that the Bible has rules in order to interpret it, and does not need man to imply their own understanding just as you did here above. You cannot choose for yourself what the text says, the text explains itself. You can't say the mark in Rev 13 can be seen by man, and the one given by God cannot, just because it fits your understanding. All buying and selling in Revelation is the same, unless you can prove otherwise. All marks on the foreheads are the same, unless you can prove otherwise. If you want to decipher the book, you must allow it's own rules to apply, not our own understandings. Or you can simply continue to be one of those millions over the last 2000 years with their own interpretation.
I agree with this. In other words the Bible "self interprets". Absolutely. But don't discount that the "time wasn't right" in earlier forms of Christianity as well; it wasn't merely a rule set that needed discovering. That is why the spirit is poured out again, to complete the work, not by man's hands, but God's. Man's rule set creates Governing Bodies, etc etc ad nauseum.
You are an amazing person Joshua. The only person who understands the Bible without imposing his interpretations to it. I commend you.
The next question I would ask is, when does the this pouring out of spirit occur, what if it's at the end of the time of the end, just a few days before the new world, and not the beginning?
No, that's Gordon... I have only spoken of how I believe the Bible will be deciphered, not that I ever said I have never allowed my own interpretation to creep in. My argument was how I believed the Bible should be deciphered, not to anything I understand it says. Unless you want to include the fact that I said that all marks and buying and selling needs to either be literal or not, then I guess you could call that an interpretation, but I prefer to think of it as an argument to the rule of thumb rather then an interpretation.
Singlecell can I ask if you think those in Rev 13:15 ...those who will be caused to be killed for not taking the mark of the beast........... Do you think this is literal or symbolic...RK says its literal....I no longer agree with this.....well let's say I don't think I do.???.
My reading of Joel 2 is pretty spaghetti-coded; I see that "autumn rain" coming during the 1260 days, when the "seed of the woman" is in the wilderness being "fed for a time, times and half a time". Before the sun is dark and moon turned to blood. The spirit being poured out is initiated by "new prophetic information" [new scroll?]: "Jehovah will answer his people: ‘Here I am sending to you grain and new wine and oil, And you will be fully satisfied;" - Joel 2:19a Then: "For he will give you the autumn rain in the right amount, And he will send upon you a downpour, The autumn rain and the spring rain, as before." - Joel 2:23b
Literal. The "wild beast" on it's military rampage to secure the global order around itself will play the role of the Roman, the Seleucid, the Babylonian, and the Assyrian putting to death anyone who won't bow to Nebuchadnezzar's statue. The pattern of Israel will play out, the Levites and those who follow the Levites might die, but they'll die faithful to Jehovah. It's the death of those Levites (the remnant of the 144,000) which prompt Jehovah's judgment against his instrument of judgment. ------------------------- But it's also symbolic. Refusal to bow equates to being deleted from the "world" system through the digital web which controls the globe. (the buy and sell denial) "maybe you will be hidden on the day of Jehovah" "those meant for captivity will go into captivity" We saw a mini-version of this in WW2; I see no reason to relegate Revelation 13's "wild beast" global coercion scheme to be merely symbolic of spiritual death. Not only would that be anti-climactic, but it's one of the same problems I find with the "1914 framework" where the persecution of Jehovah's people boils down to 8 guys in prison for 6 months, yet the "shadow" fulfillment was Jerusalem being burned to the ground and all it's inhabitants killed?
Is there not two attacks though, one which starts the 1260 days, and the other when they finish their preaching at the end of the 1260? How does that play into your chronology?
Can you clarify how the two attacks relate? (or just cite the verses) 8th king initiates trampling -> seed of woman in wildnerness | new scroll | spirit poured out I'm more of a "conceptology" than "chronology" guy lol
Well first, there has to be an attack by Babylon to send Gods people into captivity. Rev 11:2 "But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months. I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.” Rev 13:5 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months." Dan 11:31 "And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature." So there is an attack at the beginning of the 1260 days that removes the constant feature and the two witnesses begin their preaching in sackloth. Now at the end of the 1260 days there is another attack. Rev 11:7 "When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them." So when do they finish their preaching work? It's at the end of the 1260 days, so therefore these two survive physically through the first attack that sends them into captivity to Babylon, and then they are physically killed at the end of the 1260 days when they finish their preaching work. As well the three and a half days they lie dead cannot be connected to any other time frame, and literally represents three and a half days. Thinking the 8th king comes first is a very common understanding, even Robert still holds to that, but as I've mentioned before, that's impossible. You will notice in the fifth bowl the wild beast goes down, but yet in the first bowl we see men with the mark of the beast, and Gods people already into captivity long before the fifth bowl. As well, the wild beast goes down only 450 days before all the other beasts, therefore far shorter then the 1260 days the two witnesses preach. The 8th king rises only 450 days before the new world, far short of the 1260 days the two witnesses preach. Dan 7:12 "But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season." This is why I've said from the very beginning that the most important scripture you could possibly focus on as it pertains to chronology is Dan 12:11. Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days." That scripture was where my journey began all those years ago, the moment I realized that those two events were not the same moment, but separated by 1290 days. There are two attacks, one when the constant feature is removed starting the captivity to Babylon, and then second when the two witnesses end their preaching work and they are physically killed. When reading any scripture in the Bible on this subject, that's the first thing that should come to mind, which attack is it talking about. Which brings me back to Revelation and the wild beast attacks. Remember the trumpets, such as the second. Rev 8:9 "and a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were wrecked." We see that the living creatures in the sea died, and we understand this as those who serve Jehovah going into captivity, and represents a metaphor. As it pertains to Rev 13:15. Rev 13:15 "so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast." We know this scripture cannot be speaking literally of all who worship God, because quite simply some will survive into the new world...
Joshua, that rule you rely on does not work always. That the Bible would explain itself always. There are things left open and you can not understand those things unless you see the real fulfillment. Like with the mark of the beast. But now it is obvious thanks to news that soon everyone will be required to have an inserted microchip under the skin in order to buy or pay. So now you can understand thanks to the fulfilment you see. Same with Jesus, he said 'Belive me thanks to the deeds I do'. Then the israelites should have come to the right conclusion by contemplating the deeds of Jesus. Those were obvious to everyone. You did not have to be well versed in the scriptures to intellectualy understand that Jesus was the promised messias. So today if you only look at the pages of the Bible, but you don't follow real and true news and you don't make the connection to the Bible. News->Bible. You will miss the whole thing.
I couldn't disagree more, the mark of the beast can be explained completely by allowing the Bible to explain itself. The mark of the beast is the mark of Solomon. I am sorry, but I think that is the most ridiculous understanding of all. I have credit cards in my wallet that have chips in them, I have to use them if I want to buy and sell. You can use your cell phone to buy and sell now. What in the world is the difference if the chip was in your pocket, or under your skin? It is exactly the same thing! If your Apple watch is on your wrist and you can use it to purchase, what is the difference? If I tape my credit card to my forehead and use it to pay, what is the difference? With all do respect brother, the RFID chip understanding for Rev 13 is gossip magazine trash, and if you would like some meat and potatoes, try letting the Bible explain itself. What other locations in the Bible is 666 mentioned Jan????
Then who is it that go into their interior rooms while the denunciation passes over?....just the great crowd?...and how will they find every single annoited one That are dotted all over the world......and yeah I can see being deleted from the web.....but how can all that happen considering some will be caught unawares and not awake......also it's not coming with striking observerableness...... If we get deleted from the web...that would be a real wake up call. If we hear of the annoited being murdered or killed...that would be VERY observable ..... Being literal isn't making sense....it's not fitting the other scriptures......just thinkimg aloud here brother .. But hey ..I'm the first to say I may have the wrong end of the stick with all of this.... But I need to understand something else first.... When do they or I should say all of us...when do we have Holy Spirit poured out on the maiden, young man and old man, Before they are killed or after when they are raised up??????